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[jokermatt999]

(Summary at the bottom for the impatient)

There are 3 things I can think of immediately that turn people off of Dwarf Fortress: the interface, the learning wall, and lack of a goal/direction. Graphics are another, but that's a massive can of worms that can't be properly opened until full graphics support is added. Now, Toady is busy coding awesome new features that make us fans happy, and occasionally putting some work into accessibility, but I thought it might be nice for us (the DF community) to brainstorm on how to make it more accessible. It's easy to say "it needs work", and it's easy to come up with cool feature ideas, but coming up with solid ideas on how to make DF easier to newbies is hard.

First point: the interface. To be honest, I really don't know how I'd "fix" this. Its design appears to evolve largely from roguelikes (keyboard control, mouse is generally ignored, there's a ley or menu for everything, etc), which are notorious for having obscure control schemes. Most people, it seems, would prefer a mouse controlled GUI with descriptive buttons and icons, rather than nested menus controlled by memorizing keypresses. That's not to say keyboard is bad, but it's daunting to use at first. It'd be nice if someone with some training in UI design couldn chime in here, because I'm clearly out of my element.

Second point: the learning curve, or wall rather. Ok, say you've first opened Dwarf Fortress. You sit through the charming intro, and are confronted with a confusing menu. Where is "start playing"? You'll most likely choose "create world", which will get you to an option to start playing. You'll probably go with "Dwarf Fortress", pick and embark site at random, and then embark now. Then you stand there baffled as your dwarfs mill around aimlessly. How do you control them? What do you do about food and water? What do you do with this ore you somehow managed to mine out? Why are my fisherdwarfs being slaughtered by carp, and how do I fix this? Although the wiki provides a good companion, I feel that a series of minitutorials in game could help. In the init, there could be a "tutorial mode" that pops up hints at appropriate times. Just embarked for the first time? Have a tutorial explaining how to mine out a room, and why. Running low on food? Show thr player how to set up a farm. Booze is running low? Give up all hope Show the player how to use a still. Give them a trade tutorial for the arrival of the caravan, smithing on finding ore, burial tutorial upon the first death, etc, etc, etc. Toady could spend weeks writing these, but we as a community could start writing these microtutorials now. We already have a few good large tutorials on how to start, and a couple more specific ones on the wiki, but I think small tutorials could be very useful to new players feeling overwhelmed.

Third point, lack of direction. This could be somewhat implemented with the tutorials as above. Give new players a bit of a nudge towards setting up, such as suggesting they build a farm and a still to start. Ease the players into a full fortress, but don't force them along. Like the tutorials idea above, these must be optional so as not to annoy veteran players. And for those noticing this point is far shorter than the others, yes, I did choose three points to make it look better.

So, what can we do, as a community? Brainstorm and mock up some more accessible interfaces. Write small, basic tutorials that won't overwhelm newcomers. Lastly, give some short term goals for settin g up a fortress.

What do you, bay12ers? We've got time to kill before the new version, so why not spend some time working on the future of DF?

[Sysice]

I noticed that you only mentioned that the last two were optional. SHUN Some us us hate mouse control with a burning passion.

The tutorials have been mentioned before, and every time they seem to have a good deal of support. It would be nice to not have to sit with a friend I'm trying to hook every second for two hours. Just make sure that at any point they can be skippable, but I would also give a warning of what is left in the tutorial.

The tutorial could give scripted events, like "This dwarf is entering a strange mood! *Launch description* You should get him these items, so he can make a legendary artifact!"

[fizmat]

What do you, bay12ers? We've got time to kill before the new version, so why not spend some time working on the future of DF?

The interface is... quirky, yes. Maybe not a total overhaul, but it could use some organizing so you can navigate without having to remember each time "Kitchen is controlled in stocks, using dyed cloth - in orders, bookkeeper precision - in nobles". Needs to be more straightforward - no guessing (and wiki-ing) where to look for each specific feature. It doesn't take long to memorize them all, but until then you just can't really play.

The lack of tutorials don't have to be resolved in-game. It's not like you get DF on a CD and have to buy a magazine just to get a walkthrough There are good tutorials linked right on the wiki main page, and without the community DF is rather boring anyway... The forums' projects and challenges is what adds direction now, the community tutorials teach quite well too. Maybe a tutorial can be implemented at some time, but I don't see a desperate need in one.

[Sysice]

The game should at least include a link to the one Toady finds most helpful, then. New players often don't want to spend the time to find the wiki if they're already confused beyond any hope. (In their minds, at least)

[jokermatt999]

Sysice, you and I are definitely on the same page. That's exactly what I meant about those tutorials, thank you. As for mouse vs keyboard, I meant to include a line about how keyboard is much better than mouse once you know what you're doing, but I forgot. DF should definitely not drop keyboard support, but it should probably pick up better mouse support at some point.

Fizmat, have you ever tried introducing somebody to DF? A game that basically requires a separate wiki to play will turn a large majority of people off. It's easy to forget how damn confusing it is from a newbie's point of view (especially if they didn't find the wiki), but try to put yourself in a new player's shoes. That's why I wrote that bit about starting up DF for the first time. Also, note that I'm not saying tutorials must be in the next version, but that the community should help prepare for when they are added.

[Footkerchief]

Jokermatt: no offense, but all of your main points were extensively explored in the official "What turns you off about DF?" thread.  It's a very long thread and asking you to read all of it would just be mean, but you can search for key words like "tutorial," "interface" and "goal"/"direction" to get an idea of what ideas people came up with.  Then you can build on them.

[fizmat]

Fizmat, have you ever tried introducing somebody to DF? A game that basically requires a separate wiki to play will turn a large majority of people off. It's easy to forget how damn confusing it is from a newbie's point of view (especially if they didn't find the wiki), but try to put yourself in a new player's shoes. That's why I wrote that bit about starting up DF for the first time. Also, note that I'm not saying tutorials must be in the next version, but that the community should help prepare for when they are added.

Em, I "introduced" myself just about 2 weeks ago, my biggest problem was the lack of numpad on my keyboard. But then, I love reading game wikis (got a pretty good idea what Nethack ending is all about despite being crushed by the castle bridge on my best attempt). But yeah, I tried using in-game help (?) before dismissing it as almost useless.

[jokermatt999]

Jokermatt: no offense, but all of your main points were extensively explored in the official "What turns you off about DF?" thread.  It's a very long thread and asking you to read all of it would just be mean, but you can search for key words like "tutorial," "interface" and "goal"/"direction" to get an idea of what ideas people came up with.  Then you can build on them.

I've seen some of that thread, and yes, I realize a lot of what I've said has been said before. However, that topic seemed to be more airing grievances, at least to me. I made this topic to try to encourage people to actually work on some of what we can do.

[Davion]

As for easing new players into Dwarf Fortress I started a project awhile back called Dwarf Fortress Compendium, which will hopefully serve as a way to gently nudge new players into the game without overwhelming them with all the available information out there.

It'll basically host a series of brief guides for newbies that will give them enough information to get their feet wet, but still leave enough room for them to explore the video tutorials, wiki, and whatever else for more in depth information. For now it has been hiding out in the Creative Projects forum until there is some actual content on the website (just a bunch of placeholder text right now); I've been meaning to get started on the actual articles and content but the holidays/work have slowed that down.

[Impaler[WrG]]

The lack of tutorials don't have to be resolved in-game. It's not like you get DF on a CD and have to buy a magazine just to get a walkthrough There are good tutorials linked right on the wiki main page, and without the community DF is rather boring anyway...

Seriously a link on a unofficial wiki page that's can only be found by trawling the forums is an adequate substitute for in game tutorials??

[Footkerchief]

unofficial wiki page that's can only be found by trawling the forums

The wiki URL is displayed in the DF worldgen screen where no new player can miss it (as well as in the DF readme).  And seriously, everyone who gets introduced to DF nowadays gets introduced to the wiki as well.  It's certainly not an adequate substitute for in-game tutorials, but drop the hyperbole.

[Impaler[WrG]]

You sure?  I'd never seen anything but the Bay12 URL in the game, I just looked at the worldgen screen and theirs defiantly no URL on it, perhaps you should grab a screen shoot to demonstrate to what your referring.

Your point about "Everyone knows about the wiki" reflects the selection bias of only associating with People who successfully figured out how to play DF, which everyone agrees is impossible without the wiki, hence everyone here knows about it.  But I'm sure their are legions who never knew about it and never figured out how to play.

[Aqizzar]

Yep, when you select "Design New World With Parameters" for the first time, it gives you that "Press F9 to continue" screen, reminding the player that the game is still very much an alpha project.  There's a line suggesting going to dwarffortresswiki.net for more help.

So it's not exactly prominent, but it's certainly there.

[Footkerchief]

It shows up on the normal "Create New World Now!" screen too, at least if you don't have anything in your save folder.



Vanilla 40d.

[zwei]

It shows up on the normal "Create New World Now!" screen too, at least if you don't have anything in your save folder.

...

Vanilla 40d.

Just because it is there does no mean people will notice it.

It is is middle of of "discalimer" text. People do not read disclaimer text. If you read first line you can be quite expected to go "yeah, it is indie, it is not like i can expect this to be perfect", and skip reading everything up to green "F9" that is actually what you look for ("go away, disclaimer screen, i want to play, not read semi-eulas!").

Coloring link in bring blue/teal would make links more eye-catchy.