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[Vector]

Gah.

Request extension to Monday.  Both Pandarsenic and I are three hours earlier than the board time, and I doubt that either of us will be able to post on time (i.e., 8 AM on Saturday morning).

Unvote.

Pandarsenic, get the hell in here and die.

Spoiler: On Pandarsenic (click to show/hide)

Actually, I was on for most of yesterday.

And really, the only person I've pushed this whole game was Janus. What the hell kind of scum would obfuscate by immediately bussing his partner? That's more kinds of retarded than I can count. I know I'm creative scum but jeopardizing my team in a way that absolutely retarded is just wasteful. I know, WIFOM, but the point stands.

If we have 5p with 1 scum, we could use our Free Lynch to exam the odd interactions between Janus and dirtybirdy, but really I need to go over the whole game and how Janus and the rest of the players interacted.

It's not just WIFOM.  It's the fact that I've seen you pull this shit OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN as scum to the point where I can practically smell it.  This move has precisely the same character as did your gambit as exterminator in Paranormal 12--you open big with a clearing move, ignore the game, and try to convince everyone to leave you alone.

Then, we have this:

Unvote.
Pandarsenic's quick ok-i-posted-so-don't-lynch-me-please reply and weak argument seem suspiciously scummy to me...

Tell us, where were you all this time? And why didn't you vote for your pal Zai for his (obviously) scummy way of conversing?

So far as suspicions go:
- Eduren has not posted yet (I know it's only the first few hours). 
- webadict isn't posting overmuch.  How do you like them apples?
- dorf for odd reasoning against Pandarsenic.
- Leafsnail for only FoSing then not posting much more.

Interesting that Janus's attack on dorf is so poorly supported, and he says nothing about Pandarsenic's lack of defense for his attack.  It seems almost as though he already knows what's happening.

You've played with me before, yes?  I don't do aggressive well in general.  That was me being aggressive.  This is also me being aggressive, just so you know...

[...]

vote Pandarsenic

Also, webadict is scum.

See I can make vague claims without bringing up any sort of evidence as well as either of you.

Shortly after, an ass-covering vote.  Looks like a passive scum player getting prodded, to me.

I'm doing one for everyone.  You just bumped yourself to first because of your response.

Unvote.
Pandarsenic's quick ok-i-posted-so-don't-lynch-me-please reply and weak argument seem suspiciously scummy to me...

Hmm.  This seems like you're trying a little hard.  Granted, Pandarsenic didn't post anything of depth, but it is/was random-vote-stage.  Perfectly normal thing to do.  And *all this time*?  Really?  He posted 3 (RL) hours after the game started.  Out of 48 hours.  Oh no, what is this craziness!

And now Janus takes back his prior attack, covering for Pandarsenic once again.  Interesting that he'd rather protect Pandarsenic than attack dorf, isn't it?

Sorry, internet died on me during the day yesterday and the post that I tried to put up didn't go through. Finally got things fixed up.

Right now I'm most suspicious of Pandarsenic and JanusTwoFace. Neither of you voted for dorf, despite both of you finding his behavior scummy. Janus is especially suspect, since you noted that there was a good chance that he was scum instead of newb doc but didn't vote. Could be because it wasn't necessary, could be that you knew he'd flip town. You two have also been in a huge fight all day 1 to the exclusion of really looking at anyone else. I find this very suspicious.

Thought I'd mention this, just because it was there.

Right now I'm most suspicious of Pandarsenic and JanusTwoFace. Neither of you voted for dorf, despite both of you finding his behavior scummy. Janus is especially suspect, since you noted that there was a good chance that he was scum instead of newb doc but didn't vote. Could be because it wasn't necessary, could be that you knew he'd flip town. You two have also been in a huge fight all day 1 to the exclusion of really looking at anyone else. I find this very suspicious.

I've already explained why I didn't vote for dorf.  Just as you've already tried to explain why you were the 5th (and final) vote on the same new doc claim.  Apparently you think me way of doing things is scummy and I think the way you did things is scummy.

So far as this 'big argument', most of my argument was with Leafsnail rather than Pandarsenic.

And again, he keeps on trying to dissociate himself from Pandarsenic.  Over and over and over... I bet the scumchat is full of either yelling or silence >_>

Spoiler: On Zai's found connection between Janus and Dirtybirdy (click to show/hide)

To cover this particular juicy tidbit:

But oh looky what I have found in review of said post:

Since the extension:
- 2 posts from Zai attacking me

What? Where is this elusive second post? I made 3 posts, but in only one of them did I "attack" you ("s because I was simply stating who I thought was scum; I didn't even vote because I had another day to look over and decide). However, I did "attack" DB in 2 of those posts. Are you confusing your scum buddy with yourself now, Janus?

Oh snap! A link between DB and Janus! Wow! That's crazy! And is more of a tie than DB has between me and Janus! I think I'll unvote Eduren and save him for tomorrow. Dirtybirdy gets my vote for everything I had in that post, everything else since, along with him being an Extra Tunnelvision Deluxe Pro model which will be Eeeeextra Anti-town tomorrow if we're both still alive, even if he's town, which will happen if scum doesn't get lynched today and is smart; we can't afford tunnelvision in lylo.

This is what Janus originally wrote:

Exactly what I expected...

Since the extension:
- 3 meta posts (2 from Pandarsenic, 1 from Mephansteras)
- 2 posts from Zai attacking me
- 1 not terribly useful post from DirtyBirdy
- Nothing from Leafsnail (pre-arranged) or Eduren (not so much)

Since I was really confused by this, I went back and examined what had happened.  Since meta clearly wasn't referring to player-meta, it must have been game-meta--i.e., extension requests.  Therefore, this is the extension in question:

3 extensions.  0 objections.  Extension granted.


New deadline: wednesday 11pm EST

And here are the two posts by Zai in question:

Mainly dirtybirdy and Janus. Dirtybirdy because of reasons I think I've already said (? I'll check what I said Day 1 about him tomorrow), but I may just be getting a similar "newbie scum" vibe to what I got with Dorf, and we all know how that ended. Janus because I never trust him when he's trying to be useful; he did that in a couple of games as scum, the only specific one I can remember being the first Vote Mafia. I don't recall about what he did Day 1, but today he spread vague accusations until he noticed a firm bandwagon forming close to the end of the day, and promptly jumped on it.

More content tomorrow if I'm not dead yet. [PPE:] And I won't be dead yet. But I need sleep; my brain's already slowing down.

Oh. And for the record (just noticed dirtybirdy said he/she in reference to me), I'm a guy. Says so in my profile, so it must be so!

[PPE2:] lulwut Pandar. Trying to get a "full day" in now that the lull in activity has ended?

Tonight at 11 PM EST is the deadline right now, Meph. And I believe the current vote count is me tied with Janus for the lynch.

I will hopefully be able to do things later; I'm about to leave for the next few hours, so now isn't an opportune time to start reviewing stuff. I'll vote later; I'm fine with a no lynch if I don't get back in time, if that's what happens with ties.

MOD: What happens when there is a tie for the lynch?

The first contains what is clearly an attack on Janus (and dirtybirdy).  The second contains no attacks whatsoever, so I believe that in this case we can characterize Janus's statement as an "overreaction," rather than a connection between him and dirtybirdy.

Any more questions?

[Pandarsenic]

Time for a complete archive of interactions with Janus I feel are particularly "noteworthy" as well as occasional other notes about still-living players (emphasis on Janus, so don't be offended if you aren't mentioned :I ).

DAY 1
Begins talking casually with dorf, accuses webadict.
Pisses around a bit and then votes Zai.
Bounces from him to Eduren after my TOTALLY CORRECT FUCKING TOLD YOU ALL accusations, FoS party for several people, Eduren being the only one from then still alive now.
Leafsnail jumps on this, accusing Janus of faux-scumhunting, which is precisely what it was.
Janus reflexively counteraccuses Leafsnail a bit and pokes at dorf's randomvote on me.
>Not in a post, but at this point his LACK of any pursuit on Eduren has become very noticeable to me. Keep in mind he's still voting Eduren.
Oh hey, Leafy observes this a post later: http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=46678.msg931704#msg931704
Janus soon thereafter posts "OH HEY WHERE IZ EDUREN."
>Thus far I'm not feeling Leafsnail as the scum partner. His interaction with Janus feels too genuine.
Eduren shows up with legitimate explanation for his absence.
My post reminds me that the list of players he made is clear WIFOM. However, since only Eduren was alive from that list... well, more WIFOM. We won't touch that for now.
Eduren asks for an extension instead of voting dorf on the forming bandwagon. Janus makes a point of avoiding the bandwagon too.

DAY 2:
Eduren accuses Zai for not voting for Eduren. Yyyyyyyeah.
Leafsnail jumps on Janus for the exact thing I mentioned above.
Eduren pushes Zai moar.
Dirtybirdy bandwagons Zai. Janus places third vote on Zai with a large post about how Zai is Soooooo Contentless.
>At this point, I doubt Leafsnail or Zai are scum. Leafy and I independently arrived at the Janus-is-scum conclusion and if Zai was Janus' partner, it would only be in a panicked state that he would resort to 3rdvoting his partner for a bus. Neither were in any real danger that day. Add to that the multi-day fight between Zai and several others, and he's too contentious to be a VERY likely scum candidate. It's important to keep in mind they wouldn't have to keep the roleblocker alive specifically because first, Doctor was lynched d1, and second, the final scum can't roleblock while killing. Even if he needed to. Which he wouldn't.
Zai puts the finishing touch on the Janus lynch, putting it at 4-3.

Verdict: We have a free lynch and I don't want to go through the complications of post-substitution dirtybirdy=>Vector.

Unless that's a success (doubtful, but removing a major liability at Lylo), a further full examination of everyone else is on the menu.

Just a reminder: If I get killed, then tomorrow YOU WILL analyze the other two players. You will analyze them start to finish, leaving nothing out. You will not piggyback off arguments, you will not quickvote. You will be thoughtful, and you will choose accurately.
If you do not understand, then reread this until you do.

--

Oh, a reminder for anyone watching who, like webadict, likes to say "X was obvscum" after the game: If you didn't say it in the dead chat then you didn't predict it. Get your bets in.



[Pre-post edit] The vote on Vectorbirdy was formerly because I couldn't read the Dirtybirdy/Janus dynamic. However, (1) Extension please. I'll humor you, Vector; and (2) I am now quite certain of Vector. Systematic refutation of his failcusation to follow.

[Pandarsenic]

Fuck it, I'll just number them. I'm not dealing with quote organization for all that.

Point 1: "Hi, I'm going to compare your actions to something totally different!" Dissimiles don't work in Mafia, Vector.

Point 2: "Dorf's randomvote (stated to be such by him, confirmed by his deathflip) and Janus' wine list." Janus' attacks on everyone are poorly supported, Vector. It's why he was so clearly scum. And really, 'lack of defense for his attack' and 'already knows what's happening?' Don't make us imagine the worst for you. You're going to accuse me, you will give me something concrete to refute. This is the Duke Nukem Forever of accusations. You're trying to present a little pseudo-idea and have us fill it in. So, what do you mean by 'lack of defense for his attack' and what, precisely, do you say is happening here? I wish to tell you how wrong you are. And I'm aware that demanding something to actually respond to is also something I did in BYOR2, so don't try to call my meta on that.

Point 3: "Janus' OMGUS, which Pandarsenic declared as the final nail in JanusTwoFace's coffin, is actually evidence of Pandarsenic's guilt!" Stick your head in a blender.

Point 4: "MY GOD! JANUS IS TRYING TO BUDDY PANDARSENIC TO GET SOMEONE WHO REALIZES HOW SCUMMY HE IS OFF OF HIM! PANDARSENIC MUST BE SCUM BECAUSE SCUM ONLY BUDDY THEIR PARTNERS!" Seriously. Head, blender. Do it.

Point 5: "The 'big argument' thing." I think that may have actually been Janus trying to get people to ignore my WoT damning him at that point, and to instead look at his argument with Leaf, who (while correct) did not organize a big explanation of the many and varied forms of JanusTwoFace Being Scum like I did. I dunno. Maybe he was trying to spam out WIFOM in his dying breaths.

Also, just a reminder for all of the above: Until JanusTwoFace's lynch, I never (that I can recall?) voted anyone beside Janus. Take what you will from that.

[dakarian]

2nd extension heard, no objections.

New Deadline: Monday, 9pm EST.

[Leafsnail]

Vector, bear in mind that if Pandarsenic is Janus' scumpartner, he was effectively bussing him, and bussing him consistently over the course of 2 days, long before he was in real danger.  Why would he be doing this?

The first contains what is clearly an attack on Janus (and dirtybirdy).  The second contains no attacks whatsoever, so I believe that in this case we can characterize Janus's statement as an "overreaction," rather than a connection between him and dirtybirdy.

But even when they're talking to each other, they don't seem to want to accuse each other.  They just sortof ignore eachother (even though Janus was one of the ones up for a lynch).

Also, I'm beginning to wonder why someone would kill Meph in the night.  Yeah, he's a good player, but the fact he wasn't around towards the end of the day means he'd be more of a suspect than Pandar or Zai, so it seems like a rather odd choice.  I can't think of any reason why Pandar or Zai would off him instead of the other one or myself.  And before you shout "WIFOM!", would you mind explaining what exactly the WIFOM would be meant to achieve?

[Vector]

I'm going to apologize for my initial post, which I made while severely sleep-deprived.  I'll try to clarify.

...

Wow, just went back and looked at it again, and I sound positively insane.  So, to address what has been said by Pandarsenic and Leafsnail:

Fuck it, I'll just number them. I'm not dealing with quote organization for all that.

Point 1: "Hi, I'm going to compare your actions to something totally different!" Dissimiles don't work in Mafia, Vector.

Point 1: "Hi, you're a guy who consistently does whatever the 'no one would ever do that' strategy du jour is.  I can see you pulling a full-game Janus bus for the ginormtastic WIFOM it would spew."

Point 2: "Dorf's randomvote (stated to be such by him, confirmed by his deathflip) and Janus' wine list." Janus' attacks on everyone are poorly supported, Vector. It's why he was so clearly scum. And really, 'lack of defense for his attack' and 'already knows what's happening?' Don't make us imagine the worst for you. You're going to accuse me, you will give me something concrete to refute. This is the Duke Nukem Forever of accusations. You're trying to present a little pseudo-idea and have us fill it in. So, what do you mean by 'lack of defense for his attack' and what, precisely, do you say is happening here? I wish to tell you how wrong you are. And I'm aware that demanding something to actually respond to is also something I did in BYOR2, so don't try to call my meta on that.

To translate, this is what I'm saying:

Janus posted an extremely weak list of scumcusations, i.e. pretty much everything anyone had done that was even mildly scummy.  On the other hand, he completely ignored the fact that you had attacked him with no evidence.  Certainly, Janus was being as scummy as hell.  I still find it suspicious that he said absolutely nothing about your unsupported attack, when it would have been a better move than trying to screw with a couple of lurkers.

In the same post, he also says that dorf's reasoning is odd--though he realistically should be following dorf's reasoning against you.  The entire situation around that post is extremely odd.

Point 3: "Janus' OMGUS, which Pandarsenic declared as the final nail in JanusTwoFace's coffin, is actually evidence of Pandarsenic's guilt!" Stick your head in a blender.

I'm saying that, without considering your reaction to JanusTwoFace (given that I don't feel like getting lost in the WIFOM), I feel like I'm seeing an avoidance dance on his part and then finally a token vote.  *shrug* I have a particular interpretation of the situation.

Point 4: "MY GOD! JANUS IS TRYING TO BUDDY PANDARSENIC TO GET SOMEONE WHO REALIZES HOW SCUMMY HE IS OFF OF HIM! PANDARSENIC MUST BE SCUM BECAUSE SCUM ONLY BUDDY THEIR PARTNERS!" Seriously. Head, blender. Do it.

*Inserts head in blender*
*Presses frappe*

Here's the thing.  What I kept on seeing in JTF's behavior is that he'd attack you... but then immediately refute his own arguments.  Sure, maybe he was buddying.  It's damn stupid buddying, but it could be buddying.

On the other hand, I feel like it's token attacks that are repealed because he knows he's the one who's supposed to get bussed.

Point 5: "The 'big argument' thing." I think that may have actually been Janus trying to get people to ignore my WoT damning him at that point, and to instead look at his argument with Leaf, who (while correct) did not organize a big explanation of the many and varied forms of JanusTwoFace Being Scum like I did. I dunno. Maybe he was trying to spam out WIFOM in his dying breaths.

Also, just a reminder for all of the above: Until JanusTwoFace's lynch, I never (that I can recall?) voted anyone beside Janus. Take what you will from that.

Yes, that's one of the reasons why I feel like it was a tunnel-bus to self-clear.

Vector, bear in mind that if Pandarsenic is Janus' scumpartner, he was effectively bussing him, and bussing him consistently over the course of 2 days, long before he was in real danger.  Why would he be doing this?

As I've been saying, I think it's a D1 bus.  Why?  Well, precisely for the reason you've posited: "Why would he be doing this?"  It's a treasure-trove of WIFOM, and I know Pandarsenic can't resist them.  I've watched his scumgame, and he's a WIFOM-player.  He consistently attempts to do precisely what won't be expected, and what people call impossible.

On the other hand, this is a Near-Mountainous game.  Hmm... that might change things.

The first contains what is clearly an attack on Janus (and dirtybirdy).  The second contains no attacks whatsoever, so I believe that in this case we can characterize Janus's statement as an "overreaction," rather than a connection between him and dirtybirdy.

But even when they're talking to each other, they don't seem to want to accuse each other.  They just sortof ignore eachother (even though Janus was one of the ones up for a lynch).

The bit where Janus and Dirtybirdy ignored each other?  Well, I can't say anything about that, because it seems to have happened, and I wasn't responsible for it.  I'm just refuting Zai's perception of Janus's purported "slip."

Also, I'm beginning to wonder why someone would kill Meph in the night.  Yeah, he's a good player, but the fact he wasn't around towards the end of the day means he'd be more of a suspect than Pandar or Zai, so it seems like a rather odd choice.  I can't think of any reason why Pandar or Zai would off him instead of the other one or myself.  And before you shout "WIFOM!", would you mind explaining what exactly the WIFOM would be meant to achieve?

I don't know why Pandar would kill Meph.  I don't know why anybody playing this game would kill Meph.  So... possibly "for WIFOM," possibly because of some weird thing going on based on who is attacking whom, possibly it was an asspull.

If it's "for WIFOM," I assume it was to spread confusion everywhere.  That's WIFOM's general purpose, as far as I know.



Eduren, is there any reason why you've been absent in the last little bit?

[Eduren]

Eduren, is there any reason why you've been absent in the last little bit?

Well at first I was waiting for Pandar to come back and have his say. Then I wanted to let you get your bearings and have your say.

I really don't see Pandar doing the game-wide bus that you are proposing.

Just for clarification, my vote for DB has transferred to Vector.

[Pandarsenic]

Yeah, Vector's trying too hard to push this idea because he can't avoid a lynch any other way.

[Vector]

Yeah, Vector's trying too hard to push this idea because he can't avoid a lynch any other way.

I'm scared that if I back off, you'll slip through our fingers.

[Leafsnail]

As I've been saying, I think it's a D1 bus.  Why?  Well, precisely for the reason you've posited: "Why would he be doing this?"  It's a treasure-trove of WIFOM, and I know Pandarsenic can't resist them.  I've watched his scumgame, and he's a WIFOM-player.  He consistently attempts to do precisely what won't be expected, and what people call impossible.

Yeah, but you're making a serious scum mistake

Just because it could be true doesn't mean it is.  Yes, Pandarsenic might be pulling off an extremely elaborate bussing attempt, but that doesn't mean he is.  I see no reason to think that he was doing anything other than attacking a scummy player.

So yes, you've made a pretty good case as to how Pandarsenic could be scum.  But you haven't really made any attempt to say why he is scum and why you're voting him.

[Vector]

As I've been saying, I think it's a D1 bus.  Why?  Well, precisely for the reason you've posited: "Why would he be doing this?"  It's a treasure-trove of WIFOM, and I know Pandarsenic can't resist them.  I've watched his scumgame, and he's a WIFOM-player.  He consistently attempts to do precisely what won't be expected, and what people call impossible.

Yeah, but you're making a serious scum mistake

Just because it could be true doesn't mean it is.  Yes, Pandarsenic might be pulling off an extremely elaborate bussing attempt, but that doesn't mean he is.  I see no reason to think that he was doing anything other than attacking a scummy player.

So yes, you've made a pretty good case as to how Pandarsenic could be scum.  But you haven't really made any attempt to say why he is scum and why you're voting him.

... First off, maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't call it "extremely elaborate."  Bussing is generally simple.

My problem here is that I can't point to any one of his posts and say "I see it right there!  He's scum!!"  (This might be partially because he doesn't have that many).  Mostly, I'm going "Okay, Zai and Leafsnail look like town.  That leaves eduren and Pandarsenic as potential scum, and out of those two this game looks more like Pandarsenic's playstyle than that of eduren."

I see Pandarsenic doing what he always does--mentioning the technique he's using, and then saying "But why would any scum do that?  That's stupid!"  I've probably had this exact same confrontation with him 5 times, and each time he was scum.

That's enough evidence for me.

[Zai]

Prediction: Pandar's going to be alive tomorrow if Vector/DB isn't scum. Eduren too. So it'll be Pandar, Eduren, and me or Leaf. A Pandar game-wide bus is pretty out there, but should still be looked into further tomorrow if the game continues on. Not really worth the effort too much in the next 2 hours, and I don't want to bother with another extension. But Eduren would require more looking into as well, as he relentlessly lurked Day 1 and then started to vote me for what he did, and hasn't done much since then, though he gets some support from me for the seemingly townie move of asking "wel hu do u think is suspicious? mite as wel be useful in deth if u r town".

And I'm sorry, Vector, but I didn't think you would be able to change our minds too much anyway. And you didn't.

[dakarian]

Current Vote Count:

Vector[4]: Eduren, Leafsnail, Zai, Pandarsenic
Pandarsenic[1]: Vector

Deadline: 1 hour

[Vector]

Yeah, well.  If he's still alive, then lynch the bastard tomorrow.

[Pandarsenic]

quote author=Vector link=topic=46678.msg966105#msg966105 date=1263242786] I've probably had this exact same confrontation with him 5 times, and each time he was scum.

That's enough evidence for me.
[/quote]

FIVE TIMES? I've done that FIVE TIMES?

I need links, that sounds very unoriginal for me.