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[herrbdog]

Thanks Chthon, I stand corrected. I don't mind being wrong if I learn something =D

[Chthon]

Np, I learned something too.  I knew that heiroglyphics were based on pictures of things like Chinese, and that you put certain pictures together to make vague ideas, but what I didn't know is that there were sounds associated with those pictures  

Heh, another interesting fact about the written Korean language.  It was devised as a simple writing system so that women could read books while the men were off to war.  At the time it was thought that women didn't have the mental capacity to learn written Chinese.  They created the language to be a sort of blueprint on how to pronounce what was written.  After they were done the men though, hey, why do we have to learn Chinese when this is so much easier.

Back on topic though, the dwarves writing system in Fortress mode would likely be abstracted out, as you as the player should be able to know what every dwarf wrote.  However, in adventurer mode, there is the problem of, I'm not a dwarf, I need to learn to read dwarf or these are just scribbles.

[Xeirxes]

I'd imagine that eventually "Literacy" may become an ability, because I don't think that children should be born reading books, and maybe some peasant immigrants wouldn't know how to read either.

[4bh0r53n]

In their status box (cant remember the right name, you know the one that says "x is feeling content......) they could have after their favourite foods, "x knows how to read Dwarvish and is learning to write". I dont think that writing should be a skill like in the way that growing or metalsmithing is but should be a different sort.

[Xeirxes]

Yes, I agree; it shouldn't be like a profession skill.

[schnobs]

Some of you might find the history of our latin alphabet interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B
etc.

Btw, it's rather obvious that whenever wrinting techniques, that is media and tools changed, the script quickly followed suit. Chiseling into stone, scratching into a piece of wax or clay, fluent writing with pen and paper... the script used in penning the US declaration of independence may be latin at it's core, but to me it looks more like arabic.

(BTW: There has ben a lot of hype about the hyperlink and surfing the web when the internet became popular. However, I only really started "surfing" in this way since the wikipedia has reached critical mass.)

[ March 16, 2007: Message edited by: schnobs ]

[Chthon]

Hey Herbdog, wanna work together and come up with a dwarf, elf, human, goblin, and kobold script for Toady if he decides to implement different languages?  I think it'd be fun  

[herrbdog]

I think that'd be easy and fun, considering I have made several tilesets already! =D

[corc]

was there anymore talk about this?

I know I'm resurrecting, but I was going to type out a lot of stuff just like what was said in here  :p

[Neonivek]

You should be able to make "Biography" of Dwarves, items, or locations. So that in adventure mode if you ever found that book it would tell you everything about them (What can I say... I love collecting info in Adventure mode).

Books could be an excellent info collecting source in Adventure Mode.

[Javis]

Ok, let's talk about what kind of scripts and writing practices the four intelligent entities would use.

We have Mountain, Forest, Plains and Evil.

IMO, the Mountain civs would be most likely to start out writing in the stone and clay [STONE PREF]around them, so this would lead to an angular script, as seen in the Runic alphabets.  They would collect their records on clay or stone tablets.  This practice would carry over as they began to engrave metal [METAL PREF], so copper, silver and gold currency would be cast with an image of the civ leader and  an inscription of the year using their runic alphabet.

Since the forest civs make just about everything out of wood[WOOD PREF], their writing materials would likely be strips of bark, and they would use reeds to apply an ink made from plant products.  This would lead to a more sinuous script.

The Plains civilizations would have access to large herds of large animals as well as a variety of other products, so maybe they would use vellum from their domestic animals to make records.  In their early history, they used plant products as ink, but as the scribes and religious orders began desiring more permanent records, they began trading for mineral-based inks from the mountain civilizations.

The Evil civilizations enjoy torturing and humiliating their captives [ABUSE BODIES], so their would use the skin of captives who have died as a writing surface, and even use the blood of their victims as a coloring for their mineral-based ink.

[ April 11, 2008: Message edited by: Javis ]

[Proteus]

quote:Originally posted by Javis:
<STRONG>
Since the forest civs make just about everything out of wood[WOOD PREF], their writing materials would likely be strips of bark, and they would use reeds to apply an ink made from plant products.  This would lead to a more sinuous script.
</STRONG>

They could well be able to have some form of papyrus, as this is made out of leaves. I have no doubt that, if there is such a plant like the papyrus plant in the DF universe, then the Elves will no doubt have discovered it  

[Silverionmox]

quote:Originally posted by Javis:
Ok, let's talk about what kind of scripts and writing practices the four intelligent entities would use.

We have Mountain, Forest, Plains and Evil.

IMO, the Mountain civs would be most likely to start out writing in the stone and clay [STONE PREF]around them, so this would lead to an angular script, as seen in the Runic alphabets.  They would collect their records on clay or stone tablets.  This practice would carry over as they began to engrave metal [METAL PREF], so copper, silver and gold currency would be cast with an image of the civ leader and  an inscription of the year using their runic alphabet.

There is preciously little clay in the mountains.. that is more suitable for plainsdwellers, like the Babylonians. For ordinary, prosaic writings dwarves would use slate to scratch on or chalk to write with on the stone walls. Currency is typically struck rather than cast, it might be reasonable not to require fuel, like studding. On the other hand, there have been places and times where millstones were used as currency. Maybe it would be fun to have your mayor declare a particular craft as trade standard, instead of always using small metal plaques (eg. bracelets or rings) .

quote:Since the forest civs make just about everything out of wood[WOOD PREF], their writing materials would likely be strips of bark, and they would use reeds to apply an ink made from plant products.  This would lead to a more sinuous script.

Bark doesn't really influence writing style, other influences play more of a role.

quote:The Plains civilizations would have access to large herds of large animals as well as a variety of other products, so maybe they would use vellum from their domestic animals to make records.  In their early history, they used plant products as ink, but as the scribes and religious orders began desiring more permanent records, they began trading for mineral-based inks from the mountain civilizations.

The Evil civilizations enjoy torturing and humiliating their captives [ABUSE BODIES], so their would use the skin of captives who have died as a writing surface, and even use the blood of their victims as a coloring for their mineral-based ink.

They even might write personal history on the bones of their fallen, as part of an ancestor cult. Sounds fitting for a race typecast as primitive, and is more  versatile than determistic evil - which will be nuanced sooner or later.

Interesting. Alphabets though spread much like languages: along with soldiers or traders. I would expect the used alphabet to be a function of history rather than geography. Also, it wouldn't affect much except the demand for writing materials, and maybe that literacy requires you to master the language and the alphabet - insofar different alphabets are used for the same language.

[corc]

I think you guys are getting too complicated too fast...

simple implementation would be:
- library room (setup like any other room but from a bookcase furniture type)
- books (doesn't matter what you call them, they've got writing or communication on them)
- skill like swimming and conversationalist --> Literacy
- creation of the "trade" object being the book/paper/binding which would be stored in the bookcase

figuring out the materials for the books for different races can come later, and would also be a product of figuring out what a "book" would be called when created from the different workshops.

later on people can add on more and more to the idea of education to the game, where you even add a new stat along with agility and toughness... Smarts, which allows for a multiplier on experience gained->leveling of a skill.

even with just 3/4 of the first list would add a whole new dimension to the game in itself and lend itself to a great deal of modding  

anyway, I'm not trying to stop the discussion, it just seems to be blowing way out of proportion  

[Dwarf Fanatic]

I love it! I think there should skill increases for the readers' comprehension skills (no nessessarally) and the writer's writing skills. Also, I think dwarfs use Runes, IE a straight alphabet used to carve into something, maybe a 'scripted' form for books?