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[Mr.Person]

I SAID TO STOP TALKING ABOUT IT LEAFSNAIL AND APOSTOLIC NIHILIST

On one hand, I agree with you.  The argument is drawing a lot of what little focus we have in on itself.  On the other hand, it's a good thing that they are pushing at each other.  Judging by the strength of the reactions, one or the other is likely to be scum.

Personally, I disagree with you though.  I think that Apostolic Nihilist is using too much flowery language to try to drive home his point and by extension not thinking his points through as well as he could be.

@JanusTwoFace:
Which reactions?
Who else is scum?
What would you do if AN flipped town? Scum?
If Vector flipped town? Scum?
Despite the fact you KNOW it's anti-town, why do you insist on letting the fight continue?

[ToonyMan]

Pandarsenic is scum.
Leafsnail is probably town.
Mr.Person is leaning town.
Janus is either way.
Apostolic is most likely scum.
Vector is probably town, helping town is gooood.

Anybody else I haven't noticed and are therefore lurking.

PandaUPick has been really stressful right now, I'll be back in shape here in no time flat though.

[JanusTwoface]

***Wall of text warning ***

Spoiler: Responses to Vector (click to show/hide)

I suppose you missed this, though it was sprayed all over the place in a couple threads.  I've been on vacation until yesterday, with minimal internet access.  I also slept terribly for two weeks.  Yesterday, I got home at midnight or so after dealing with airports for 10 hours (9 pm my time), and then had to stay up until the point of utter brain-deadness--i.e., 3 in the morning--to reregulate myself to the usual time zone.

That would be why I didn't post yesterday.  I try to be at least semi-coherent when writing in here.

That I did.  This is the only game that I'm currently still in.  Without knowing that, I think that I was perfectly in the right to accuse you of promising to deliver and not.  I really don't want to get into this argument again though, you're not the only person to do this.

I didn't vote you because I don't really suspect you that much of being scum.  I merely thought that you were lurking and that a FoS/vote would fix that.  I wanted to vote AN, so FoS it was.  And it worked, yes?

Although I'm  a little puzzled why you have appearantly mostly responded to the most recent post in the thread (at the time).  There's a lot more in the thread to react to after all.  You did post a list of scum/not scum, but not much beyond that.

Passiveness and attacking stupid/small things.  If you're reaction-testing, your blows are too mild; if you're making a genuine attack, you're going after far too little.  I know you're a good player, and this is nonsensical in either direction.

Random votes mean anything to you?  At least it was game related.  And I've already defended my play style on day 1.  I try to be agressive, but that's just not the kind of person I am.

Is there some reason why you're muttering about adjectives and pontificating on the potential usefulness of someone that is dead?  Other than, say, the fact that you're scum and trying to turn an argument into a full-out brawl?

The adjectives stood out to me.  That's exactly what scum hunting is, finding things that stand out and talking about them to see if they might be scum behavior.

1. You sound like you're trying to turn this fight into a townie-vs.-scum dichotomy.  Do you really think that town and scum push at each other that aggressively?  To me, it sounds like you're trying to line up lynches.

2. His points are about DEAD PEOPLE.  This isn't matter of life or death; he's not pushing anything dangerous.  You want him lynched because he's got an opinion about dead people and the strength of various roles?  Are you insane?

3. You have shown no connection whatsoever between the strength of his points and his language usage, and further there is no link between strength of argument and scummitude (particularly given the subject matter).  Your logic is devoid of sense.

1.  Yes.  I really think they do.  And no, I'm not trying to line up lynches, I'm trying to make sure that there is at least some activity on this threa.

2.  Ignoring the people that are already dead is one of the stupidest things that we can do.  They're talking about Zai.  Zai was killed by the scum.  How does that *not* relate to scum hunting?  One of our greatest sources of information is who the scum choose to kill when.  Why did they choose to kill Zai last night?

3.  Fair enough.  I wasn't focusing as much as I could have been on the points he was making because that had already been done to death by Leafsnail.  It really didn't need any more than a mention, which I gave it.

Spoiler: Response to Mr.Person (click to show/hide)

Which reactions?

Reaction was probably the wrong word.  Perhaps the strength of the arguments?

Who else is scum?

Most likely scum IMO (in order of descending scummitude):
- Apostolic Nihlist for the reasons in my last post
- eduren for lurking up a storm and I still haven't forgotten RVS
- ToonyMan for being quieter than he normally is and less forcefuls in his '*insert name here* is scum's
- ExKirby / Vector for acting unusually before the personality transplant and going after only the most recent post afterwards (so far)
- anyone that I'm not thinking of because they haven't been posting

ToonyMan, is that really the only reason that you've been quieter than normal?

What would you do if AN flipped town? Scum?

If AN flipped town, I would first think to look more closely at Leafsnail, but would probably go back to one of the other's on my list.  Eduren if he hasn't posted anything of value between now and then.

If AN flipped scum, I would be happy because that means we're down to one scum and continue scum hunting.  I don't think AN and Leafsnail are both scum, but I won't discount the possiblity.  Still, eduren would probably be next.

If Vector flipped town? Scum?

If Vector flipped town, I wouldn't be terribly suprised.  He is being helpful and more forceful than scum usually are.  I cannot blame Vector for ExKirby's behavior.

If Vector flipped scum, then I'd be happy that there was only one scum.  On the other hand, ExKirby through up a pretty good smokescreen, if unintentionally, so I don't think there'd be much to go on from there.

Despite the fact you KNOW it's anti-town, why do you insist on letting the fight continue?

A fight like that can be either town or anti-town, it depends on how we use it.  For the most part, the fight had/has died down, so I don't think we have to worry too much about it.  I hadn't personally had a chance to comment on it, so I took the time to do so while it was still relatively fresh.

If/when it turns out that AN was actually scum, then was the fight really as anti-town as you think now?

[ToonyMan]

That and school starting again.

[Vector]

I suppose you missed this, though it was sprayed all over the place in a couple threads.  I've been on vacation until yesterday, with minimal internet access.  I also slept terribly for two weeks.  Yesterday, I got home at midnight or so after dealing with airports for 10 hours (9 pm my time), and then had to stay up until the point of utter brain-deadness--i.e., 3 in the morning--to reregulate myself to the usual time zone.

That would be why I didn't post yesterday.  I try to be at least semi-coherent when writing in here.

That I did.  This is the only game that I'm currently still in.  Without knowing that, I think that I was perfectly in the right to accuse you of promising to deliver and not.  I really don't want to get into this argument again though, you're not the only person to do this.

I didn't vote you because I don't really suspect you that much of being scum.  I merely thought that you were lurking and that a FoS/vote would fix that.  I wanted to vote AN, so FoS it was.  And it worked, yes?

Although I'm  a little puzzled why you have appearantly mostly responded to the most recent post in the thread (at the time).  There's a lot more in the thread to react to after all.  You did post a list of scum/not scum, but not much beyond that.

You're overreacting.  You asked why I was gone; I told you why I was gone.  I said nothing about asking why you FoS'd me rather than voting.  Why explain things that don't need explanation?  Why behave as though I were attacking you, when I said only that I was providing my excuses?

I never said you weren't in the right to threaten me.  I informed you of my reasons for being gone, but for unknown reasons you are taking it as some sort of virulent attack.

As far as responding only to the most recent post, it was the one that stuck out the most.   I opened other ones in tabs, decided they canceled each other out, and didn't mention them.  You had a couple posts that seemed noteworthy; hence, I mentioned

Passiveness and attacking stupid/small things.  If you're reaction-testing, your blows are too mild; if you're making a genuine attack, you're going after far too little.  I know you're a good player, and this is nonsensical in either direction.

Random votes mean anything to you?  At least it was game related.  And I've already defended my play style on day 1.  I try to be agressive, but that's just not the kind of person I am.

...

That's a post that contains no votes, just a couple of gentle taps at Pandarsenic and eduren.  Anyway, I'm mostly letting this one slide given your known passiveness in other games as town.

1.  Yes.  I really think they do.  And no, I'm not trying to line up lynches, I'm trying to make sure that there is at least some activity on this threa.

2.  Ignoring the people that are already dead is one of the stupidest things that we can do.  They're talking about Zai.  Zai was killed by the scum.  How does that *not* relate to scum hunting?  One of our greatest sources of information is who the scum choose to kill when.  Why did they choose to kill Zai last night?

3.  Fair enough.  I wasn't focusing as much as I could have been on the points he was making because that had already been done to death by Leafsnail.  It really didn't need any more than a mention, which I gave it.

2. Ah.  What I mean is that they're spending a good deal of time talking about Zai's role and how useful/unuseful it is.  I don't really see why an argument about Zai's role being useful/useless paints Apost scum-colored.

3. It follows that your argument really is that you're voting Apost due to disliking his use of adjectives, rather than from any sort of connection between adjectival use and scummitude.  Many of us have unusual speech patterns; some of us tend to paint things in grandiose terms with startling frequency.

Surely you noticed something else of interest in the past 15 pages?

[Eduren]

Janus:

The adjectives stood out to me.  That's exactly what scum hunting is, finding things that stand out and talking about them to see if they might be scum behavior.

I agree that your accusations of "flowery language" is a legitimate way to get reactions out of people. However, when you put someone at the top of your scumlist without anything else to go off of, you seem to be having real trouble finding scum.

In fact, While I agree with your claim, you seem to have skipped a step. You went straight from noticing it to calling him Scummy McScumScum without the "talking about them" part.

Also, why is Leafsnail nowhere on your scumlist? Logically, since you claim that one or the other is scum, that moves both of them up your list?


Mr Person: You haven't been doing much hunting lately. Who is scum and why?

Pandar: Same as Person

[ToonyMan]

Hah, I never use that step Eduren.

@Pandarsenic:
Thoughts on the Janus wagon?

@Eduren:
Make a scum list too!  Don't tell others to without doing one yourself man.

[JanusTwoface]

I agree that your accusations of "flowery language" is a legitimate way to get reactions out of people. However, when you put someone at the top of your scumlist without anything else to go off of, you seem to be having real trouble finding scum.

I switched to voting Apostolic Nihilist because I was sick of voting for you and you not posting.  It really wasn't helping much.  This is the first decent post you've had in a fair while.  You're still the second most likely person to be scum in my book.  (From the Response to Mr.Person earlier)

In fact, While I agree with your claim, you seem to have skipped a step. You went straight from noticing it to calling him Scummy McScumScum without the "talking about them" part.

He did something suspicious, I voted him for it.  That doesn't necessarily mean that he's guaranteed to be the most likely scum, but it does mean that I'm paying more attention to him.

Also, why is Leafsnail nowhere on your scumlist? Logically, since you claim that one or the other is scum, that moves both of them up your list?

Leafsnail is not on my direct scum list because I doubt that both AN and Leafsnail are scum.  I think AN is scum therefore Leafsnail is fine for now.  If AN dies and turns town, then I'll reconsider Leafsnail.

Surely you noticed something else of interest in the past 15 pages?

Huh.  15 pages... Wow.  I have my posts per page up really high, so I'm only showing 5, but that's still a lot of content. 

Most of the last few pages were made up of the interactions between Leafsnail and AN.  Then comments on the other interesting things were in the responses to Mr.Peron.  Here it is again (not spoilered):

Most likely scum IMO (in order of descending scummitude):
- Apostolic Nihlist for the reasons in my last post
- eduren for lurking up a storm and I still haven't forgotten RVS
- ToonyMan for being quieter than he normally is and less forcefuls in his '*insert name here* is scum's
- ExKirby / Vector for acting unusually before the personality transplant and going after only the most recent post afterwards (so far)
- anyone that I'm not thinking of because they haven't been posting

I'll admit that I may have jumped on AN a little strongly, but until he posts some sort of response I'll leave my vote.  It's been about 24 hours since his last post here although he joined Horrible Role Mafia about 4 hours ago.

Right back at you of course.  Anything interesting other than my post that you've already analyzed?

Also, Pandarsenic, are you back yet?  I think you said that you were hoping to get your laptop back today and you haven't posted in a while.

[Mr.Person]

Janus and Pandarsenic are my guess. Beyond them, Apostolic Nihilist and ToonyMan would be my next guesses. Janus is down below, Pandarsenic is MOSTLY because everybody else is looking town and he's active lurking, AN for focusing on the Zai-dorf what-should-of-been lynch way too much, and ToonyMan isn't really being aggressive.

Janus:

Which reactions?

Reaction was probably the wrong word.  Perhaps the strength of the arguments?

You still avoid telling me which arguments. Noted.

Who else is scum?

Most likely scum IMO (in order of descending scummitude):
- Apostolic Nihlist for the reasons in my last post
- eduren for lurking up a storm and I still haven't forgotten RVS
- ToonyMan for being quieter than he normally is and less forcefuls in his '*insert name here* is scum's
- ExKirby / Vector for acting unusually before the personality transplant and going after only the most recent post afterwards (so far)
- anyone that I'm not thinking of because they haven't been posting

So I haven't been posting, but Eduren has? Is that what you're saying?

ToonyMan, is that really the only reason that you've been quieter than normal?

What do you mean by this? We can't read your mind.

What would you do if AN flipped town? Scum?

If AN flipped town, I would first think to look more closely at Leafsnail, but would probably go back to one of the other's on my list.  Eduren if he hasn't posted anything of value between now and then.

If AN flipped scum, I would be happy because that means we're down to one scum and continue scum hunting.  I don't think AN and Leafsnail are both scum, but I won't discount the possiblity.  Still, eduren would probably be next.

Good lord, I don't think you could possibly say anything scummier. I love how you feel the need to point out you'd be happy with lynching scum and that'd you continue scumhunting. I may not be alone in this, but those are kind of implied. The fact you pointed it out meant you wanted us to know you scumhunt. Why do you feel the need to convince us you're scumhunting via any method other than actually scumhunting? Same thing about being happy to have lynched scum, although since I asked, I guess that's kind of what I should have been expecting you to say.

You don't think they're both scum, but you're not going to discount the possibility? Way to take a stand there, John Kerry. You can't take both sides, when I ask you what you think, you're supposed to say what you think, not what's possible. It SOUNDS like you've decided to discredit the idea that both AN and Leafsnail are scum, so you've just lied to me.

Despite the fact you KNOW it's anti-town, why do you insist on letting the fight continue?

A fight like that can be either town or anti-town, it depends on how we use it.  For the most part, the fight had/has died down, so I don't think we have to worry too much about it.  I hadn't personally had a chance to comment on it, so I took the time to do so while it was still relatively fresh.

If/when it turns out that AN was actually scum, then was the fight really as anti-town as you think now?

Are you kidding me? Anybody with a brain can see that you tried to get the fight to continue. If you said that you wanted AN to get lynched so that's why you wanted the fight to continue, I would of been ok with that. Instead, you decide to try to brush your involvement aside and try and flip the attack onto me.

Do you say if you think the fight is anti-town or pro-town? No. Do you say whether you want the fight to continue? No. Do you say what you want to get from the fight? No.

So yeah, JanusTwoFace.

[Eduren]

I switched to voting Apostolic Nihilist because I was sick of voting for you and you not posting.  It really wasn't helping much.  This is the first decent post you've had in a fair while.  You're still the second most likely person to be scum in my book.  (From the Response to Mr.Person earlier)

So you don't have anything else on Apost?

He did something suspicious, I voted him for it.  That doesn't necessarily mean that he's guaranteed to be the most likely scum, but it does mean that I'm paying more attention to him.

But you have made him your most likely scum. By your hunting practices, the actual behavior isn't very scummy, but the reasoning behind the behavior could be. So you have elevated somebody to most likely scum for a behavior that he has not had a chance to defend. I understand that the vote adds pressure, but what I am worried about is how quickly he jumped up the list.

Leafsnail is not on my direct scum list because I doubt that both AN and Leafsnail are scum.  I think AN is scum therefore Leafsnail is fine for now.  If AN dies and turns town, then I'll reconsider Leafsnail.

Well I was thinking statistically. You said "one or the other" and that should (No matter what you think of Apost) elevate his scumminess. Or at least it would for me...  I understand though.



Scumlist(in order):
Janus- He seems inconsistent. If I could get a better read on him, he'd probably go down the list.
Mr. Person- Question+sideline. doesn't sit right with me.[Edit]:New post, Ill rethink
Toonyman- Hasn't had much content, apparently will get better.
Leafsnail- A strategy disagreement is grounds for scummitude? If there was something else to it then maybe.

[JanusTwoface]

You still avoid telling me which arguments. Noted.

The whole argument between Leafsnail and AN.  Not any particular post(s).

So I haven't been posting, but Eduren has? Is that what you're saying?

Is this what you meant to say?

I noticed Eduren wasn't posting too much because I was already paying attention to him earlier.  He's posting more now.

What do you mean by this? We can't read your mind.

I was replying to an earlier post of his.  He appearantly could read my mind just fine.

Good lord, I don't think you could possibly say anything scummier. I love how you feel the need to point out you'd be happy with lynching scum and that'd you continue scumhunting. I may not be alone in this, but those are kind of implied. The fact you pointed it out meant you wanted us to know you scumhunt. Why do you feel the need to convince us you're scumhunting via any method other than actually scumhunting? Same thing about being happy to have lynched scum, although since I asked, I guess that's kind of what I should have been expecting you to say.

And if I had not responded or responded only in part, you would have found that scummy.  I answered your question truthfully.  Not really anything more I can say about that.

You don't think they're both scum, but you're not going to discount the possibility? Way to take a stand there, John Kerry. You can't take both sides, when I ask you what you think, you're supposed to say what you think, not what's possible. It SOUNDS like you've decided to discredit the idea that both AN and Leafsnail are scum, so you've just lied to me.

That's how I think.  I won't discount something I think is unlikely, I just won't focus as much energy on it.  Then if it becomes more likely, I consider it again.

Do you say if you think the fight is anti-town or pro-town? No. Do you say whether you want the fight to continue? No. Do you say what you want to get from the fight? No.

I'll say this as plainly as I can then:
- Ended up pro-town
- No (it's over anyways)
- Yes, a read on Leafsnail and AN

So you don't have anything else on Apost?

Leafsnail posted a fair bit in their fight.  And AN still hasn't posted.  Nothing new until we get more posts.

[Mr.Person]

@Janus again, last question for awhile since I'm going to go sleep.

If the fight WERE to continue, what would you want to happen at the end of THAT fight?

[JanusTwoface]

If the fight WERE to continue, what would you want to happen at the end of THAT fight?

I don't think that further fighting strictly between Leafsnail and Apostolic Nihilist would prove beneficial.  Without more people on each side mayhaps, but not just those two.

However, if such a fight were to take place, it would be interesting to see if either parties' opinion had changed.

Scummy:
- If either backs down without sufficient explanation
- If they continue to hold their ground strongly without new information (escalating without cause)

Less scummy:
- If they use what's been said since their last posts and update their views

Of course, now that these have been pointed out, a scum Leafsnail or scum AN would be careful to avoid these cases and we'd instead have to watch for them being too careful to hide their tracks (and therein lies WIFOM and madness), but that's how it goes.

There's probably more to it than that, but I should probably get some sleep at some point myself.  If I think of anything more in teh morning, I'll post it.

[Mr.Person]

My insomnia says that can't be the case. Janus, wouldn't the most desirable outcome for you logically be the one you think is scum getting lynched? In this case, shouldn't your response be "Apostolic Nihilist getting lynched"? You're trying to hide the fact you want him lynched (hiding info is scummy and lying is scummy and spending time trying to get the "right" answer is scummy), so either way, you're scum.

[Apostolic Nihilist]

So, ToonyMan and Apostolic Nihilist: who do you think are scum, and why?

At this point? I still think Leafsnail is scummy. Less so than I did before (admittedly, my attacks were shallow and ridden with holes), but I think the way he behaved yesterday was scummish. Tossing his vote around, for instance. He had somewhat valid reasoning, but it's still odd.

I have a vague-ish feeling that Janus might be town. Zai's vote was on Janus at the end of D1, which means Zai would've been confirmed to him. If he was scum, there'd be no reason to nightkill him. He could take him out N2, if need be, and the WIFOM of Zai still being alive would likely overwhelm town. If Janus claimed to have gotten a 'town' message from Zai and he flipped town, I'm sure we'd all consider Janus to be significantly more townie.

Oh, and Janus: "flowery" language is rife throughout almost all of my posts -- it's not an anomaly.

"Ridiculously small chance"?  Heck, even if we'd asked random.org who to lynch yesterday, we'd still have a nearly 1/4 chance of getting one.  Add the fact that dorf was the scummiest in the game by far and the chance was a lot higher.

All is not lost on the rolefront - I am starting to think the Neighbour Voter is significantly weaker than we thought it was in the hands of town, and not as bad in the hands of scum.  Scum can just make sure they're always on a lynch or a buddy, while in town hands it only creates a CT for one day (we have no protection from the mafia NK).  And having a Shielded Voter might not be too bad - heck, if the Backup voter is scum, the scum now have one less vote.

Dorf wasn't a bad lynch, but I still don't think he was the 'best'.

Funny how you ignored ExKirby's 4th (supposedly random) vote on Pandarsenic.
Also funny, how you apparently missed my post explaining why his vote was weird.

Scummy self preservation is scummy.

That was hardly a self-preservation act. I was merely pointing out how you dismissed EK of all scumminess and decided to get all aggro on me, for some reason.

I see two possible reasons:

• You are scum and as such you don't care who gets lynched, just that it's a townie. You might have targeted me, because I'm new and speculated that I wouldn't properly defend myself and would say something stupid (again) that would get me wagon'd.
• Seeing how you have just started playing, you could still be RVSing or scumhunting.

I will now compile ALL Leafsnail's posts, since the beginning of the game:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

the guy you voted for will be notified about your alignment once the Day ends.

dorf, you seemed to explode in record time last time I saw you.  Do you have any special plans for surviving this time around?

Nah, I'll just go with the flow and see where it gets me. I will probably start out being less aggressive.

Leafsnail.

Dorf, perhaps your lack of aggression stems from the fact that you're actually behind the recent killings?  What were you doing last night, and who would you want as your partners in crime?

I know of the "Secret Voter", who can secretly pm his real vote to webadict while appearing to vote for someone else, if he so wishes.

Unvote.

Oh, I thought that, in some wierd, way, that way your post, and that was his base on passiveness. I prefer things in plain text, not quotes.

So, Leafsnail, why are there, commas after, every, single, word, in, your, sentence?

Well, you see, Mr.Person, while my posts do have a lot of commas in, generally, the one you've selected there, you should realize, is not mine.

While I'm voting you, do you prefer us to put our known pms in quotes?

Unvote.

Incidentally, I will be away until the 31st (leaving later today).  It's a slightly longer abscence than I previously anticipated.  I'll be able to play again on the 31st.

Also, for some reason, incidentally, I can't stop typing, you see, without a lot of unnecessary commas, by the way.  ExKirby who is scum, should answer.

Barring us having a counter, the Crush probably isn't Mafia. That'd be broken.

Dude, in Vote Mafia One the guy I replaced in for had a crush on ToonyMan the mafioso.

I think we need to stop all focusing on ExKirby... we still have a game to play.  With that in mind, Dorf, why did you jump on the ExKirby wagon so gleefully and without reasoning?

Funny how you ignored ExKirby's 4th (supposedly random) vote on Pandarsenic.
Also funny, how you apparently missed my post explaining why his vote was weird.

Scummy self preservation is scummy.

Seriously, the tone of this post implies an attack on me, but there is none there.  How come?  It seems like you're trying to see who you can lynch rather than who is scum.

Sorry about the quoting.  I'll bear that in mind.

What I mean by self defensive is that he isn't bothering to do anything other than reply to my accusation.  He obviously checked back over the thread, but he didn't seem to form any suspicions while doing so.

Unvote.  Zai... what in the name of God are you doing?  There really would be no need to pull such a ridiculous stunt as town.

I'm a townie; lynch someone else, probably a townie; random townie is NKed by Mafia.

Ugh, you've done nothing except come up with increasingly elaborate methods of WIFOMing.

As you can see, the first four (~60%) of his posts were just jumping from one person to another. On the fourth, he jumped on me again and that lasted for two posts. And now (7th and latest post) he jumped again to Zai.

Seriously, the tone of this post implies an attack on me, but there is none there.  How come? It seems like you're trying to see who you can lynch rather than who is scum.

No it's still not an attack on you. But you have raised suspicions now, Leafsnail.
Unlike you, I haven't been all over the place with my votes and have provided reasoning for them (it).
It's not over yet, but due to recent events I have to temporarily redirect focus elsewhere.


Now about the Zai situation...
His WIFOM-filled wall of text wreaks of scumminess. He saw we're getting on to him, so he quickly decided to change tactics and go all lawyer-y on us.
He wants to generate enough doubt to get himself cleared. I don't buy it.

It's important to note that Dorf was attacking Leafsnail constantly; while his 'vote' (or lack, thereof) remained on Zai, he was still focused on Leafsnail. The way he approached left him wide open to attack, and Leafsnail easily took advantage of this and lead the charge. He was being passive which drew the attention of everyone else and soon enough he was dead.

Leafsnail's entire attack on dorf was based off OMGUS. I think Leafsnail wanted two things:

1. He didn't want Zai to be lynched. He could get rid of him at night and prevent his role from being passed on to others.
2. He wanted the suspicions against him to be dropped. He took out dorf, and the push was easy.


I think the whole debacle with Zai yesterday was useful, even if it ended badly. Scum don't like confirmed townies running around, so while they could easily push a lynch on him, the threat of the Neighborly Voter role floating around once more was too great. They needed to avoid a Zai lynch at all cost.

Leafsnail and Mr.Person are the 'scummiest' on my list of scummitude so far.