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[Leafsnail]

Unvote.

Apostolic Nihilist, you are scum.  If you felt so strongly that we should lynch Zai rather than a potential mafia member, why didn't you at least vote for him yesterday?  Why didn't you say anything about it until today?

I voted for dorf because he was acting in a ridiculously scummy fashion, and our aim is to eliminate the mafia.  Lynching town Zai wouldn't be advantageous - we'd have the same role, only with one less townie, if the backup is town.

But you clearly didn't care about who got lynched yesterday.  What you care about is trying to use it to create a mislynch today.

[Apostolic Nihilist]

I would've voted Zai if I had been online between his claim and the end of the day. Unfortunately, I was not.

This OMGUS is quite pathetic, really; the dying throes of a misguided scum.

Dorf was acting scummy, yes. Zai was spewing either WIFOM or valid strategy, depending on what his alignment was -- it was valid strategy, as he was town.

Leafsnail, explain to me how the situation we're in now is better than the situation we'd be in had we lynched Zai.

No seriously, Zai's usefulness COMPLETELY RAN OUT. He claimed Neighborly Voter. His power can be used to gain a (limited) confirmed townie. This only works if the mafia do not know WHO the Neighborly Voter is. Zai thought he was going to be lynched (things were looking quite bad for him) so he concocted a plan that had a decent chance of proving useful. If, however, he was not lynched, all of that usefulness completely vanished.

Neighborly voter is one of the most powerful roles in the hands of town. It's completely and utterly self-destroying in the hands of scum.

If we lynched Zai, here's what would've happened:

    If he was town:
Zai dies. Neighborly voter is transferred to Backup Voter. If the Backup Voter is town, we wind up in a slightly better situation except with one less townie. If Backup Voter is scum, we gain an immense foothold.

    If he was scum spewing WIFOM:
Zai dies. Scum dies. We're one step closer to winning.

Now, since we DIDN'T lynch Zai, we're in a much worse situation. We've lost one of the best pro-town roles and gained nothing.

Leafsnail & Mr.Person: Your argument is that "lynching scum is better than lynching town", right? It's certainly true in most instances. It's wrong here: lynching Zai had a chance of putting us into an extremely advantageous situation, and at worst a useful role would be transferred to a different, (presumably) less scummy townie.

Most of the time, we don't even hit scum on D1. It's statistically unlikely -- why would you take such a huge risk for such tiny gains?

[Mr.Person]

I don't see why you're so focused on the backup voter and Zai. This game isn't about making confirmed townies, it's about finding and lynching scum. I'd trade a chance at making a confirmed townie who has to give up voting for who's going to get lynched, which is a non-trivial sacrifice  or a scum who confirms himself as scum for a chance at finding scum any day of the week. After all, you're not going to find scum if you don't go out and look.

Hell, suppose the Backup Voter is town, and we lynched Zai. OK, Backup Voter is now a Neighborly Voter. Good, so that player's plan pretty much involves voting for people he or she doesn't think are going to get lynched. The thing is, that's the kind of behavior scum engages in to keep their feet from getting wet. Additionally, the scum would be on the lookout for the Neighborly Voter/Backup Voter. Depending on the circumstances, it might be really easy for the scum to find that player and kill him or her. In that case, we're back to square one. Or suppose the Backup/Neighborly confirms himself to scum. You can bet your ass that we'd be back to square one again. So no, we haven't really lost anything unless the Backup is scum. Since you don't even know who the Backup Voter is, it's gonna be a little hard to say that player is scum or not. (Well, unless you're the Backup Voter, but then you're just pissed you have no vote.)

In any event, we need to drop this shit right now. It's making the town unable to look past it. It's anti-town to continue focusing on if we should of lynched Zai yesterday or not.

Eduren, how come you only jumped in here to defend yourself but then say nothing else? No attacks? No suspicions? Nothing?

[Leafsnail]

Fundamental contradiction alert.

Zai dies. Neighborly voter is transferred to Backup Voter. If the Backup Voter is town, we wind up in a slightly better situation except with one less townie. If Backup Voter is scum, we gain an immense foothold.

No, we don't.  We maybe get a mafia member in a few days, but only if he's too stupid not to vote for the person being lynched or a buddy.

Most of the time, we don't even hit scum on D1. It's statistically unlikely -- why would you take such a huge risk for such tiny gains?

But wait, lynching a mafia member is a "tiny gain"?  So I guess you'd prefer to have living mafia members than dead ones?

[Pandarsenic]

If I recall correctly, I voted for Dorf to tie up the votes (I know, stupid, it's Vote Mafia so it's not like that would work as it normally would) and force more discussion. He was a decent candidate for scummitude and Zai's WIFOM was freaking me out.

Something is horribly wrong in the Leafsnail/AN fight, I think.

[Mr.Person]

If I recall correctly, I voted for Dorf to tie up the votes (I know, stupid, it's Vote Mafia so it's not like that would work as it normally would) and force more discussion. He was a decent candidate for scummitude and Zai's WIFOM was freaking me out.

Something is horribly wrong in the Leafsnail/AN fight, I think.

So. Many. Problems.

When you voted Dorf, you untied the vote.

What, specifically, is wrong with the Leafsnail/AN fight?

Why didn't you do anything about Zai's WIFOM? You didn't mention it when you voted. Usually WIFOM is a reason to vote someone.

[webadict]

Vote Count
Pandarsenic - ToonyMan
eduren - JanusTwoface, Mr.Person
Apostolic Nihilist - Leafsnail
Leafsnail - Apostolic Nihilist

Slow week, anyone?

[Leafsnail]

If I recall correctly, I voted for Dorf to tie up the votes (I know, stupid, it's Vote Mafia so it's not like that would work as it normally would) and force more discussion. He was a decent candidate for scummitude and Zai's WIFOM was freaking me out.

Something is horribly wrong in the Leafsnail/AN fight, I think.

What exactly do you think is wrong with it?

[Apostolic Nihilist]

Fundamental contradiction alert.

Zai dies. Neighborly voter is transferred to Backup Voter. If the Backup Voter is town, we wind up in a slightly better situation except with one less townie. If Backup Voter is scum, we gain an immense foothold.

No, we don't.  We maybe get a mafia member in a few days, but only if he's too stupid not to vote for the person being lynched or a buddy.

Most of the time, we don't even hit scum on D1. It's statistically unlikely -- why would you take such a huge risk for such tiny gains?

But wait, lynching a mafia member is a "tiny gain"?  So I guess you'd prefer to have living mafia members than dead ones?

It's not that lynching a mafia member is a tiny gain, it's that we had a ridiculously small chance of catching one yesterday. I'll admit, I'm bitter that I had no say in yesterdays proceedings (though it was my own fault); it pains me to have lynched a townie AND lose a useful role when a much better outcome was possible.

In retrospect, dorf was a bit scummy. Zai was spewing a compound of WIFOM and painfully early roleclaiming.

I do believe that the lynch on dorf had scum behind it. I think Zai's convoluted plan scared the scum into not lynching him.

[Leafsnail]

"Ridiculously small chance"?  Heck, even if we'd asked random.org who to lynch yesterday, we'd still have a nearly 1/4 chance of getting one.  Add the fact that dorf was the scummiest in the game by far and the chance was a lot higher.

All is not lost on the rolefront - I am starting to think the Neighbour Voter is significantly weaker than we thought it was in the hands of town, and not as bad in the hands of scum.  Scum can just make sure they're always on a lynch or a buddy, while in town hands it only creates a CT for one day (we have no protection from the mafia NK).  And having a Shielded Voter might not be too bad - heck, if the Backup voter is scum, the scum now have one less vote.

[Mr.Person]

I SAID TO STOP TALKING ABOUT IT LEAFSNAIL AND APOSTOLIC NIHILIST

[Leafsnail]

Mr.Person, I'm striking at inconsistencies in Apost's attack on me.  He's attacking me for trying to lynch scum rather than generate a confirmed townie.

[JanusTwoface]

What I lack for in quantity, I will try to make up for in sheer hugeness.

unvote.

Just letting you guys know that I don't have much posting time at the moment, but if all goes well I'll be ready with an analysis soon after 7 pm or so tomorrow.

Soon after 7 pm tomorrow was soon after 7 pm yesterday.  Your prior incarnation was already suspicious, but that may just have been fallout from other things, but promising to not lurk and then doing so?  Hmm, mayhaps you are scum after all, Vector.  Post or be upgraded to vote.

Neighborly voter is one of the most powerful roles in the hands of town. It's completely and utterly self-destroying in the hands of scum.

You really like adjectives don't you?  I agree with Leafsnail though.  I think that you are vastly overestimating the power of the Neighborly Voter.  It would have been useful if Zai hadn't revealed himself or if the Backup Voter would have had it, but I personally think that the Shielded Voter is a nice ability to save.  Robs the scum of a vote or makes a townie immune to scum powers.  Works out either way.

Something is horribly wrong in the Leafsnail/AN fight, I think.

I'd like a little more on this when you get your computer back.  Tomorrow, I think you said?  Although earlier would be nice.

Zai dies. Neighborly voter is transferred to Backup Voter. If the Backup Voter is town, we wind up in a slightly better situation except with one less townie. If Backup Voter is scum, we gain an immense foothold.

Most of the time, we don't even hit scum on D1. It's statistically unlikely -- why would you take such a huge risk for such tiny gains?

Again with the adjectives for AN.  (Quotes borrowed from Leafsnail)

Slow week, anyone?

Very much so.  I could use a few more weeks of holidays myself.

I SAID TO STOP TALKING ABOUT IT LEAFSNAIL AND APOSTOLIC NIHILIST

On one hand, I agree with you.  The argument is drawing a lot of what little focus we have in on itself.  On the other hand, it's a good thing that they are pushing at each other.  Judging by the strength of the reactions, one or the other is likely to be scum.

Personally, I disagree with you though.  I think that Apostolic Nihilist is using too much flowery language to try to drive home his point and by extension not thinking his points through as well as he could be.

[Vector]

Just letting you guys know that I don't have much posting time at the moment, but if all goes well I'll be ready with an analysis soon after 7 pm or so tomorrow.

Soon after 7 pm tomorrow was soon after 7 pm yesterday.  Your prior incarnation was already suspicious, but that may just have been fallout from other things, but promising to not lurk and then doing so?  Hmm, mayhaps you are scum after all, Vector.  Post or be upgraded to vote.

I suppose you missed this, though it was sprayed all over the place in a couple threads.  I've been on vacation until yesterday, with minimal internet access.  I also slept terribly for two weeks.  Yesterday, I got home at midnight or so after dealing with airports for 10 hours (9 pm my time), and then had to stay up until the point of utter brain-deadness--i.e., 3 in the morning--to reregulate myself to the usual time zone.

That would be why I didn't post yesterday.  I try to be at least semi-coherent when writing in here.

...

Today was eaten by my vast love of Colonization and belated Christmas celebrations.


Anyway, here's the results of a thread reread:

Pandarsenic - Looks town, though I'll need to see more of his posts once he gets his computer back.
Mr.Person - Probably town.  Some odd behavior, but I cannot see anyone trying to stop a fight in the center ring as scum (unless one of the members is a partner, but even then I consider it unlikely)
Leafsnail - Looks like town to me.  He tends to be much more passive when playing scum
eduren - also not sure.  Has been sidelining.
Apostolic Nihilist - not sure.  Leaning towards town.
JanusTwoface - scum.
ToonyMan - not sure.  Leaning towards scum, due to general lack of posting + scumhunting.  I'm accustomed to seeing him far more active as town.

So, ToonyMan and Apostolic Nihilist: who do you think are scum, and why?

As for JanusTwoFace:

Its a pretty simple request.

True, but not terribly relevant.  At least you could ask something game related?

Eduren, have I missed anything interesting?

So, not reading the thread (understandable(ish) for RVS) and casting the first second vote of the game (with the coresponding first vote two posts above that).  Care to explain either?

Passiveness and attacking stupid/small things.  If you're reaction-testing, your blows are too mild; if you're making a genuine attack, you're going after far too little.  I know you're a good player, and this is nonsensical in either direction.

Soon after 7 pm tomorrow was soon after 7 pm yesterday.  Your prior incarnation was already suspicious, but that may just have been fallout from other things, but promising to not lurk and then doing so?  Hmm, mayhaps you are scum after all, Vector.  Post or be upgraded to vote.

Does that "if all goes well" mean nothing to you, scumbucket?  I didn't "promise not to lurk."  I promised to stop lurking once I had stopped being on the other side of the country.  If you've got some real accusations, bring them and vote me.

Also, again: too much caution.  "Oh, you are scum mayhaps."  I don't like your severe indirectness.

Neighborly voter is one of the most powerful roles in the hands of town. It's completely and utterly self-destroying in the hands of scum.

You really like adjectives don't you?  I agree with Leafsnail though.  I think that you are vastly overestimating the power of the Neighborly Voter.  It would have been useful if Zai hadn't revealed himself or if the Backup Voter would have had it, but I personally think that the Shielded Voter is a nice ability to save.  Robs the scum of a vote or makes a townie immune to scum powers.  Works out either way.

Is there some reason why you're muttering about adjectives and pontificating on the potential usefulness of someone that is dead?  Other than, say, the fact that you're scum and trying to turn an argument into a full-out brawl?

Zai dies. Neighborly voter is transferred to Backup Voter. If the Backup Voter is town, we wind up in a slightly better situation except with one less townie. If Backup Voter is scum, we gain an immense foothold.

Most of the time, we don't even hit scum on D1. It's statistically unlikely -- why would you take such a huge risk for such tiny gains?

Again with the adjectives for AN.  (Quotes borrowed from Leafsnail)

Again with the muttering about adjectives for JTF.

I SAID TO STOP TALKING ABOUT IT LEAFSNAIL AND APOSTOLIC NIHILIST

On one hand, I agree with you.  The argument is drawing a lot of what little focus we have in on itself.  On the other hand, it's a good thing that they are pushing at each other.  Judging by the strength of the reactions, one or the other is likely to be scum.

Personally, I disagree with you though.  I think that Apostolic Nihilist is using too much flowery language to try to drive home his point and by extension not thinking his points through as well as he could be.

1. You sound like you're trying to turn this fight into a townie-vs.-scum dichotomy.  Do you really think that town and scum push at each other that aggressively?  To me, it sounds like you're trying to line up lynches.

2. His points are about DEAD PEOPLE.  This isn't matter of life or death; he's not pushing anything dangerous.  You want him lynched because he's got an opinion about dead people and the strength of various roles?  Are you insane?

3. You have shown no connection whatsoever between the strength of his points and his language usage, and further there is no link between strength of argument and scummitude (particularly given the subject matter).  Your logic is devoid of sense.


JanusTwoFace.

[webadict]

The deadline is being reset to Friday 10 PM CT. Because that's what cool people do. And because I need to.