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[Armok]

So, this is the continuation of the derail in FotF.

Here's my last post, I don't remember if there was anything after that. If so, evry mayor opinion that was discused shuld probably be cpypasted here anywyas. :

That' okay if you visualize the phase-space as a sphere, I guess.

If, however, one visualizes it as an n-dimensional space, the function becomes simpler:

1. Define A: The vector which is the difference between the human point (H) and the input creature point. (I)
2. Output: I + (A * alpha)

The different opinions expressed vary mostly in two ways:

1. The choice of the n-dimensional creature space.
2. The domain of alpha.

If F(horse) = horseman, alpha = 0.5 and a biological space is used
If F(horse) = centaur, alpha is undefinable and a rather messy and complicated space is used
If F(human) = human, alpha is constant
If F(human) = humanman, alpha is divided by |A|, causing divide by zero

If alpha is an input parameter:

F(cat, 0) = cat
F(cat, 0.5) = catman
F(cat, 1) = human
F(cat, 1.5) -> Less cat-like than a human.
F(cat, -0.5) -> Less human-like than a cat.

The choice of space is important, compare:

If F(horse) = horseman, a morphological space is used
If F(horse) = centaur, a body-parts space is used
If F(horse) = houyhnhnm, a conceptual space is used
etc.

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU....

I wrote a HUGE post, and then firfox lost it! RAEG!!!!!

I'l just repost my conclusions:

I find this anthropomorpism math derail awesome and hilarius! As welol as usefull if you're going to write abaut a universe where anthropomorpism is imposrtnant... actualy, somone shuld put this on TV Tropes somwhere.

I think the space asked for above is the same as used in biology, the configuration space of all possible creatures where each point is asigned a fitness value (for any given enviroment) and ev olution can be described as a random walk that undoes the last step if the endpoint is less fit than the start.
Assuming this we are faced with a problem: if we take a halfway point betwen any two given radicaly different cretures, the point is going to end up EXTREMLY unfit; something that is completly incapable of living at all. (this is due to the fitless landscape being mostly narow coridors of fitness with huge platues of unsurvivability in betwen)
Thus, the straight line function no longer work: the function I propose insted is that you do a pathfind, the path weight being euivelent to the un-fitness of the point, and it paths to whatever is the shortest path to a point that is inside a given radius of the target creture, this give several other fetures that fit our intuitive notions as well: such as that creatures uneualy far removed from the target  will be eualy close once the fuction is aplied given a constant second parameter (a catman is not more human than a tardigrade-man) and that different hybridizations reuire radicaly different aproaces; as you smoothly move an endpoint, the path and thus endpoint will make suden jumps!

Anthropomorphic nothingness might be interpreted as a ghost or shadow, "halfway real".

As for what is "more human than human" what causes disagreement is that it reuires a Perfectly Generic Creture as default, and peaple disagree on what is the most generic, here are some examples given different values of what is most generic:

nothingnes -> angel
ape -> elf, then grey (epending on the amount)
protokaryote -> Gaian hivemind
Smoothed averge of all animals -> Anime character
etc.

[Siquo]

I like this 

Chimaeras according to legend are not smoothed continuous averages, however. For instance, in earlier mentioned "morphological space" an F(horse, 0.5) would be a horseman with hoove-like nails, really long fingers and feet, abnormal wrists and elbows, slightly furry, elongated face with eyes set at about 45 degrees, etc.

Legendary Chimaera's usually take an entire bodypart, and replace it with that of another. Which bodyparts to swap is very important however, to visually still call it a *-man. I think for anthropomorphism the head is most important, then arms and hands, and lastly legs and feet, so we'd start at
Bodypart space, Human: A = 1
F(horse, 0.1) = horse body with human head
F(horse, 0.5) = horse lower body with human head, arms, hands and upper torso, walking upright (bit like a faun)
F(horse, 0.9) = human with hooves for feet

Exception to the rule is ONLY change the head, and maintain a mostly human body, as per the Egyptian gods.

A centaur however is 0.75 horse and 0.5 man, resulting in a 1.25 creature with 6 limbs, so the function needs even more parameters. Also, there's creature-creature chimaeras such as the griffon and quetzalcoatl, triple-chimaeras such as the hippogriff and the sfinx, so to cover the entire spectrum of canon chimaeras in a flexible function is... well if you find any, please give it I'm looking for something like that to implement 

[Armok]

I think you are putting to much into the exact wording of the thread title, this thread is intended simply as a continuation abaut the derail in FotF, and is really more abaut the DF furry-like animal men, or about more general ALL kinds of mixes between two creatures.

[Dasleah]

Your typing has really gone to crap this year, Armok.

[SHAD0Wdump]

Humanman?

[Armok]

Your typing has really gone to crap this year, Armok.

Yea, I know. It sucks.

Humanman?

Thats what the first post is talking abaut basically; it depends on how you define the generic non-human. "As for what is "more human than human" what causes disagreement is that it reuires a Perfectly Generic Creture as default, and peaple disagree on what is the most generic, here are some examples given different values of what is most generic:"

[CobaltKobold]

I like this 

Chimaeras according to legend are not smoothed continuous averages,

What you're looking for is (sort of) how real chimeras are- unmixed patches.

I think the best you can do for a chimera function is more procedural than mathematical, something like
ChimeraReplace(Input, Bodypart, Direction, Animal, Bodypart, Direction) and iterate on that...

where ChimeraReplace(Horse, Neck, Dorsal, Human, Waist, Anterior) replaces the horse's body from the neck "up"(dorsal direction) with a human's body from the waist "up" (anterior direction).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatomical_terms_of_location

Addition of extra heads and limbs directly is something that would need another function before we could do- and by then you're pretty nearly directly specifying the bodyplan.

[Innominate]

Like I said in the FotF thread, I think the most important difference between animals and animal men is that more communication features are transferred to the face. For example, ants communicate mainly with pheromones, bees with dancing and pheromones, dogs with their tails, scents, barking and pheromones, etc, while humans primarily use the face and voice with secondary (and often unintentional) communication from the stance, sweat (more pheromones ) and movement.

Additionally, natural defensive capabilities may be replaced or enhanced by taking advantage of better manual dexterity. Early humans for example used clubs which extend the reach and grant increased power for the same muscle mass, whereas our humanoid ancestors probably used their fists, claws or sticks as clubs.

So my guide to turning an animal into an animal man:
1. Give them the capability of erect posture - even if the preferred mode of movement is not erect
2. Increase in prominence the facial features, such as sensory organs and the mouth, stylise obfuscating fur/hair/feathers/scales
3. Add opposable digits to forelimbs
4. Body decorations such as tattoos, dyeing, piercings, clothing, jewelry and paint
5. A society which mimics the human equivalent of the animal's system (so caste/feudal society for ants, tribal for wolves, nomadic for deer, anarcho-communist for apes, etc)

These things should be followed to different degrees, and there is no reason that the enhancements should necessarily be recognisably human themselves. For example, antmen should have more prominent mandibles for which there is no real human equivalent, and birdmen should enhance the beak while their ears remain largely hidden.

[CobaltKobold]

But, with a beak, how do you have a smile? I don't think that facial expressions are really a good way to do this. Note that even gestures vary widely in meaning across human cultures.

I kind of think it'd be boring/odd if all the mannerisms were the same across (demi)humans and animalmen. . . but I suppose this is a matter of taste. Some human and some animal expressions would be best, though I'm not sure which way to mix them, other than obviously to exclude the impossible (smile + beak)

[Vector]

But, with a beak, how do you have a smile? I don't think that facial expressions are really a good way to do this. Note that even gestures vary widely in meaning across human cultures.

...

I totally think that cuttlefish should still use tentacle signlanguage/skin-patterning rather than typical human gestures.  Far more awesome that way.  Some animals have facial expressions, and that is good for them.  Other animals won't have facial expressions, and that is good for them, too.

[Innominate]

But, with a beak, how do you have a smile? I don't think that facial expressions are really a good way to do this. Note that even gestures vary widely in meaning across human cultures.

I kind of think it'd be boring/odd if all the mannerisms were the same across (demi)humans and animalmen. . . but I suppose this is a matter of taste. Some human and some animal expressions would be best, though I'm not sure which way to mix them, other than obviously to exclude the impossible (smile + beak)

You're right, and I'm definitely not suggesting that they be the same mannerisms as humans have. Just that group communication is (probably) more important for human-like sentients than for their animal bases. To be honest, I always pictured them as having their own unique methods of communication. Voice is important for animals already capable of vocal communication like birds and most larger mammals, but like Vector's example I imagine octopod-men would flash blue rings when angry (blue-ringed octopus) or other such features. Basically refine their existing methods of communication, and give many of them the ability to speak (would it make sense for snailmen to be able to speak when snails' mouths are underneath their body and totally unused for communication?) whether or not it is their first choice for communicating.

[CobaltKobold]

Vector: Why are you arguing with me? I agree with you! I know I specifically thought at least of cephalopod color patternings as communications.

Innominate: Oh. Well, why the specific suggestion for the faces then? IT seemed like you were arguing that all other things should be subsumed by this

[Vector]

Vector: Why are you arguing with me? I agree with you! I know I specifically thought at least of cephalopod color patternings as communications.

I was attempting to agree with you.  For unknown reasons, I always sound like I'm arguing with everything.  I haven't entirely figured out how to stop yet >_>

[Rose]

regarding horsepeople, they are not centaurs, they are this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

just wanted to clear that up.

(sorta)

[Nadaka]

The way I see it, you need something like:
F(typeA, vectorA, typeB, vectorB)
where the vector describes the direction and magnitude of the transformation.

F(horse, -0.75, human, 0.5) = centaur (bottom 75% of horse + top 50% of human).

F(human, -0.9, randomAnimal, 0.9) = random egyptian animal headed god.

More advanced, non scalar vectors may be required for some combination's, for example most "cat people" only have cat features at their extremities (tail, ears, hands, feet, fur, sometimes nose) while their overall body is still human.