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[Neruz]

Also, while still on the subject of Fallout, that game could make itself unwinnable if you go sidequesting for a little too long before you remember that you ought to be getting a chip. Bad design there.

I'd disagree on calling that bad design. Ignoring the time limit on your main quest is sort of like ignoring objectives and racking up frags in a team-based multiplayer game.

I'd even go as far as to say having no timelimit (or equivalent) in a game where it'd make a lot of sense storyline-wise is bad design. There's no greater way of removing any sense of urgency or importance from a major event than having it not progress at all with time. Just look at Oblivion, the daedric "invasion" is a big joke.

The bad design part of Fallout is not that the time limit stops you bumming around for as long as you like, but rather that there is a time limit at all. The game never tells you this.

[Virex]

Also, while still on the subject of Fallout, that game could make itself unwinnable if you go sidequesting for a little too long before you remember that you ought to be getting a chip. Bad design there.

I'd disagree on calling that bad design. Ignoring the time limit on your main quest is sort of like ignoring objectives and racking up frags in a team-based multiplayer game.

I'd even go as far as to say having no timelimit (or equivalent) in a game where it'd make a lot of sense storyline-wise is bad design. There's no greater way of removing any sense of urgency or importance from a major event than having it not progress at all with time. Just look at Oblivion, the daedric "invasion" is a big joke.

The bad design part of Fallout is not that the time limit stops you bumming around for as long as you like, but rather that there is a time limit at all. The game never tells you this.

I could be sorely mistaken, but I think the game leaves a pretty damn big message on your pip-boy. Only thing they don't make clear is that you'll lose if you cross the time limit, but it's pretty clear there is one and something bad's going to happen if you cross it.

[Neruz]

Also, while still on the subject of Fallout, that game could make itself unwinnable if you go sidequesting for a little too long before you remember that you ought to be getting a chip. Bad design there.

I'd disagree on calling that bad design. Ignoring the time limit on your main quest is sort of like ignoring objectives and racking up frags in a team-based multiplayer game.

I'd even go as far as to say having no timelimit (or equivalent) in a game where it'd make a lot of sense storyline-wise is bad design. There's no greater way of removing any sense of urgency or importance from a major event than having it not progress at all with time. Just look at Oblivion, the daedric "invasion" is a big joke.

The bad design part of Fallout is not that the time limit stops you bumming around for as long as you like, but rather that there is a time limit at all. The game never tells you this.

I could be sorely mistaken, but I think the game leaves a pretty damn big message on your pip-boy. Only thing they don't make clear is that you'll lose if you cross the time limit, but it's pretty clear there is one and something bad's going to happen if you cross it.

I don't remember if you get a message or not, but you are definitely not told the game will end abruptly when the time limit is reached. I only ever played Fallout once, because the time limit came out of nowhere and ended the game for me, leaving me standing around going "Wat?"

[chaoticag]

No, it specifically tells you, although I find it annoying that it pretty much rushes you to find the chip.

[Sergius]

There's a really big post it note in your PipBoy telling you how many days you have left until you run out of water. The manual and intro point you to this, telling you that you need to find the water chip before this deadline.

The unintuitive fighting in the original prince of persia game, although there might have been a way to defeat the guards without racking up near fatal wounds that I haven't discovered while I was playing it.

HUH?
Are you kidding me? Block, hit, block, hit is about as intuitive as it gets. You can fight every single guard in the game without getting hit ONCE.


EDIT: There you go:
http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/fallout/screenshots/gameShotId,324786/

[olemars]

Yeah, it's mentioned pretty clearly by both the overseer and the note in the pipboy (which includes a countdown). You can both extend and stop the countdown through certain actions though, without actually returning the chip.

One thing it doesn't mention and which I didn't discover until the third or fourth time I played the game was that you can reenter the vault pretty much right away. I thought they had sealed the door and wouldn't let you back in before returning the water chip.

Star Control II is an example where there's a hidden time limit. Actually there's more than one. Whole species might disappear without you even noticing, and if you go on too long the game is over. Doesn't really detract from the game though.

[a1s]

The intro tells you that they will all die without water.
The pip-boy has a big handwritten sign saying "you have X days left"
and they show you a cinematic of water technicians working near the water tank so you don't forget what the heck you're doing at least twice.
Plus it's 5 months (with a possibility of getting 3 more, though I guess you could miss that) were you completely ignoring your main quest*?

___________________________________________________
*)On topic of Fallout's  time limit, I actually found that part to be very nice. In the games of '97 it was the norm to not penalize the player for ignoring his duties, with Villains putting plans on hold to wait for you and NPC witnesses remembering events of years past like they were yesterday because you were to busy collecting fox eggs to look into your father's murder at the time. Fallout was gritty and realistic like that  .

[olemars]

In the games of '97 it was the norm to not penalize the player for ignoring his duties, with Villains putting plans on hold to wait for you and NPC witnesses remembering events of years past like they were yesterday because you were to busy collecting fox eggs to look into your father's murder at the time.

Since when has that stopped being the norm? Evil overlords still sit on their hands waiting for you to trigger the next quest event so the script can move on. Oblivion is such a prime example that it's almost a self-parody ("Oblivious" would be a better name for that game. People will walk around smiling and chatting about the mud crab they saw yesterday even though there's been a burning gate to the tormented wastelands of hell just outside the city for the past year)

[deadlycairn]

Super Smash Brothers Brawl.

Hilarious, and made of win, especially if you're facing down a bunch of friends.

Still hilarious, but really annoying, if in the middle of an epic duel you're killed by a falling box.

Actually, this happened to me on Little Fighter 2 as well. Any game that has objects that fall from the sky, but also has object fall damage can probably be on this list.

[moocowmoo]

If anyone followed the evolution of Ultima Online, you can see bad game design turning something decent into a truly stinking turd.

[kuro_suna]

In fallout 1 it tells you about the water chip but after you get it a new timers starts for the super mutant invasion starts up without telling you.

Star Control II is an example where there's a hidden time limit. Actually there's more than one. Whole species might disappear without you even noticing, and if you go on too long the game is over. Doesn't really detract from the game though.

In star control 2 how much of a problem the time limit is depends entirely on how long it took you to fins the quasi space portal spawner.


As for bad design I hate it when in morrowind and several other rpg's when it gives you a choice of like 40 skills but punishes you for not pouring them all into 2 or 3 key skills. Morrowind was the worst since the enemies leveled up too if you put a non combat skill into your primary skills the game quickly became impossible.

The problem is that a game should be easy to pick up but hard to master. If you have a overly complex and broken levelling system its hard to pick up and offers no challenge once you figure out what skills are essential and what useless (in morrowind the bartering skill literally does nothing).

[Sean Mirrsen]

Bartering is very important in Morrowind, if you for some reason need to buy or sell something. Just like in DF, you can manually set the price you pay/get paid, and the barter skill determines the amount of deviation from the default price the one you're trading with will tolerate. Also, you are again mixing up Morrowind and Oblivion - there were very few instances of levelling monsters in Morrowind, and they didn't make playing impossible.
And Morrowind's levelling system was more or less ingenious, compared to any normal RPG. I liked it very much.

[kuro_suna]

Bartering is very important in Morrowind, if you for some reason need to buy or sell something. Just like in DF, you can manually set the price you pay/get paid, and the barter skill determines the amount of deviation from the default price the one you're trading with will tolerate.

Shop keepers reject any offer even if its only on 1 gold more even if you hack the skill to level 255.

Also, you are again mixing up Morrowind and Oblivion - there were very few instances of levelling monsters in Morrowind, and they didn't make playing impossible.

The monster themselves don't level but they get replaced by a stronger monster type. Once I remember clearing out a cave of zombies, after I rested it was full of ice monsters.

[Sean Mirrsen]

What sort of unpatched game were you playing? Bartering always worked for me.

[kuro_suna]

I first played it before I knew to always patch everything before I do anything so that is possible.