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Author Topic: Dust Theory  (Read 6190 times)

Vector

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Re: Dust Theory
« Reply #60 on: December 16, 2009, 08:53:05 pm »

What the hell are mind children?

I believe he's saying "our theoretical children, which will have the quality more of consciousnesses than of living organisms."
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

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Zironic

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Re: Dust Theory
« Reply #61 on: December 16, 2009, 08:56:05 pm »

What the hell are mind children?

I believe he's saying "our theoretical children, which will have the quality more of consciousnesses than of living organisms."
Why isn't this a religion again?
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Vector

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Re: Dust Theory
« Reply #62 on: December 16, 2009, 09:04:45 pm »

What the hell are mind children?

I believe he's saying "our theoretical children, which will have the quality more of consciousnesses than of living organisms."
Why isn't this a religion again?

Shh, it has set theory and quantum physics in it.

It looked plausible to me, until I realized it broke some very fundamental mathematical laws >_>
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

LegoLord

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Re: Dust Theory
« Reply #63 on: December 16, 2009, 09:07:05 pm »

Shh, it has set theory and quantum physics in it.
Scientifically speaking, "hypothesis" would be much more accurate than "theory."
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"Oh look there is a dragon my clothes might burn let me take them off and only wear steel plate."
And this is how tinned food was invented.
Alternately: The Brick Testament. It's a really fun look at what the bible would look like if interpreted literally. With Legos.
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Vector

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Re: Dust Theory
« Reply #64 on: December 16, 2009, 09:22:59 pm »

Shh, it has set theory and quantum physics in it.
Scientifically speaking, "hypothesis" would be much more accurate than "theory."

...

What, you want me to call an entire branch of mathematics "Set hypothesis?"

...

"SET HYPOTHESIS?"

I mean, what are you even trying to tell me here?  In mathematics, the "hypothesis" is just the set of assumptions you make before you go prove something.

As in, if you're talking about

Quote
Let S be a set.  Then S contains the empty set.

the fact that "S is a set" is the hypothesis.


So "Set hypothesis" would refer more to the axioms of set theory, whereas set theory is what we've built from all our basic assumptions.  "Set Hypothesis" is ... well.  It's a bit disrespectful, don't you think?  It's saying that every piece of mathematical work that's ever been done--since all of it is based on set theory--is entirely unresolved.  So we have the Continuum Hypothesis of Ordinality, but that's unresolved.  Set theory, provided you allow its axioms, i.e. "we are capable of separating things into different groups," is quite well-established.

Mathematically speaking, "Set Hypothesis" is extremely inappropriate terminology.  It'd be like calling the Second Law of Thermodynamics the Second Guess of Thermodynamics.  We just don't roll like that.


So no, I don't think that scientists can say much about whether or not set theory is a hypothesis or not--because if it's still a hypothesis, your adding privileges have just been revoked.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

LegoLord

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Re: Dust Theory
« Reply #65 on: December 16, 2009, 09:26:25 pm »

I was referring to the incorrect terming of this whole thing as "Dust Theory."  When it isn't actually a theory, but hypothesis.
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"Oh look there is a dragon my clothes might burn let me take them off and only wear steel plate."
And this is how tinned food was invented.
Alternately: The Brick Testament. It's a really fun look at what the bible would look like if interpreted literally. With Legos.
Just so I remember

Zironic

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Re: Dust Theory
« Reply #66 on: December 16, 2009, 09:26:43 pm »

He's saying it should be called Dust Hypothesis.

GAHHH He beat me to it. :(
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Lord Dakoth

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Re: Dust Theory
« Reply #67 on: December 16, 2009, 10:25:21 pm »

Whether it's a hypothesis or a theory, I think that it's at the very least an interesting idea. I can't say that I feel an affinity for existing as a disembodied brain, but of course that's just me.

I seriously doubt that any of us will see the achievement of anything like this within our lifetimes. It could be a distinct possibility in the distant future, though.

However, if you live a damn long time, Armok, you should put a line in your will to be uploaded to a supercomputer that has internet access. Then you could be a sort of permanent Bay12 mascot!  ;D That would be very appropriate, considering that your name is Armok.
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Vector

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Re: Dust Theory
« Reply #68 on: December 16, 2009, 10:32:37 pm »

Shh, it has set theory and quantum physics in it.
Scientifically speaking, "hypothesis" would be much more accurate than "theory."

^

See, I thought you were referring to the only part of my post that has the word "theory" in it.

And yes, I agree with you.  It's really much more of a Dust Hypothesis, but I figured I might as well go with Armok's stylings and terminology.

Sorry about that.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

eerr

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Re: Dust Theory
« Reply #69 on: December 16, 2009, 11:43:18 pm »

My opinion is that it starts off good.

"This line of thought, growing out of the premises and techniques of physical science, has the unexpected consequence of demoting physical existence to a derivative role. A possible world is as real, and only as real, as conscious observers, especially inside the world, think it is!"

Thats way way too much of a leap for me to indulge, much less believe.
The conclusions are so far removed from reality as to be useless. Also, overusing metaphors, extending things to cover other topics that don't mix, and generally not having a coherent conclusion I can evaluate, means that this just doesn't sink in as a ground breaking revelation.
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Zironic

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Re: Dust Theory
« Reply #70 on: December 16, 2009, 11:58:38 pm »

We need to conquer the universe before we cast off our physical forms.
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Cheddarius

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Re: Dust Theory
« Reply #71 on: December 17, 2009, 12:21:23 am »

Fans of Time Cube rejoice! I have brungeth upon thee more wisdom from ye gods! Also, they have a magical magnet that makes you live forever! See here:
http://www.magneticdiscovery.com/
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Emperor_Jonathan

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Re: Dust Theory
« Reply #72 on: December 17, 2009, 01:00:01 am »

Fans of Time Cube rejoice! I have brungeth upon thee more wisdom from ye gods! Also, they have a magical magnet that makes you live forever! See here:
http://www.magneticdiscovery.com/


I find this quite attractive.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Vester

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Re: Dust Theory
« Reply #73 on: December 17, 2009, 01:18:10 am »

I like timecube. It's comforting in its nonsensicality.

I reserve comment on the Dust Theory thing because firstly, it elicited no reaction from me, and secondly, I'm worried this is going to turn into something like that "eyearms" discussion in the old Afterlife thread.

EDIT: I just realized that this article would sound really cool if I were either high or sleep-deprived.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2009, 01:31:20 am by Vester »
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"Land of song," said the warrior bard, "though all the world betray thee - one sword at least thy rights shall guard; one faithful harp shall praise thee."

Ampersand

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Re: Dust Theory
« Reply #74 on: December 17, 2009, 01:38:37 am »

I have decided to do a close reading of the Dust Theory page and analyze it more closely. The first part, "Simulation" contains a lot of quotation and babble that is really irrelevant, and only exists to attempt to support the final sentence in the section.

Quote
A possible world is as real, and only as real, as conscious observers, especially inside the world, think it is!

This is Solipsism. The fact that the entire hypothesis bases itself upon something so inane as Solipsism should be enough to make any serious person close the window, but as evidenced by the second post in the thread, I am not a serious person.

Rebuttal to the Simulation section:
It does not matter if we are brains in vats if we have no way to test the hypothesis. The idea is as useful as saying there is a giant pink invisible dragon hiding behind the Andromeda galaxy. Not only does it offer no observational clues as to it's existence, but it is entirely irrelevant to the simple fact that our senses say we are here, and since we have no other means of interpreting the world, we should behave as though our senses accurately describe reality, unless we have reason to suspect they are being fooled.

To put it simply, the claim that the universe is a simulation is neither provable, or falsifiable at this time, and is therefore utterly useless.

But let me pause for a moment and offer this instead. Suppose for a moment that there exists a universe, not dissimilar to our own, with stars, and planets, and nebulae. The only difference is that in this universe, no life exists. This universe remains real. Observations are being made all the time: Electrons observe the energy of other electrons, protons of other protons. Planets and stars observe eachothers gravity. Observation has nothing to do with consciousness.

Part two: Consciousness.

Again, the author prattles on without offering any premises or proofs of his ideas before reaching a conclusion of sorts.

Quote
On the one hand, our consciousness may be an evolutionary fluke, telling an unreliable story in a far-fetched interpretation of a pattern of tiny salty squirts. On the other, our consciousness is the only reason for thinking we exist (or for thinking we think). Without it there are no beliefs, no sensations, no experience of being, no universe.

Rebuttal:
Again, just no. As I showed in the above example, conscious thought has no bearing on the universe existing or not. Even our universe existed without any life at all for a quite some duration. Although we cannot say definitively that we are the first intelligent organisms in the universe, there was a time before stars, and planets, when the whole of the universe was a uniform fog of super hot subatomic gasses, without any cohesion or differentiation. It should be obvious that life, at least as we know it, could have existed at that point. Yet, it existed.

Part Three: Existance.

This guy seems to like repeating himself, as all three chapters so far seem to only make one point, again without offering premises or proofs; The universe is a simulation. Here, he dredges up the ancient idea of Platonic Realism as if it proves something. Modern realists however would not say that universals exist in the same way that Plato claimed that universals exist. To Plato, Universals exist in some ghostly realm, but modern realists simply say that to classify universals as existing in the same way that everyday objects exist is a category mistake. The problem is that such universals are demonstrable. I can demonstrate the universal concept of the number one without actually having the 'real' object number one.

I do believe that universal concepts are real; they must be for the universe to function at all in any logical way. We call these things transcendentals, things that exist without physical form. We know they exist because they are demonstrable, but nothing about the nature of their existence, or where they 'came from' can be derived from any observation or demonstration of these universals. The fact that these things can be simulated does not dictate that any instance of them must be simulated.

Part four: Universal Existence.

This segment is not about universals, or their existence. Here, the author compares our brains to rocks, because both are made of atoms.

Rebuttal: This is mind-bogglingly stupid for more reasons than I can list. Our brains, like computers, encode information by taking inputs and processing them into another form that is sensible to the processor. We know this, because we can observe this behavior in our brains, and in computers. This is not something that happens at the atomic scale, but by larger structures; transistors, and neurons.

When we observe rocks, what do we find? Atoms of various elements jostling against each other. Is information being transmitted across the rock?

Certainly. Electromagnetic and nuclear force interactions, and of course gravity all cause information of a kind to be transfered throughout the rock, in a predictable way that can be simulated with relative ease. While it may be possible to suppose that the rock may constitute a Turing Equivalent system meaning that it can theoretically calculate anything a universal computer can, this does not mean that it ever does.

Part five: Everything and nothing.

Here, the Author writes three paragraphs without actually saying anything. Quite ironic really.

No rebuttal is necessary since this segment is nothing but pseudo-philosophical babble.

Part Six: Universal Appreciation

This is the point where the thing turns from simply silly to outright laughable. I won't try to explain the Nonsense from this section, and will instead let it stand on it's own in part.

Quote
The universe mind will thrive in the collapse, perhaps by encoding itself into the cosmic background radiation. As the collapse proceeds, the radiation's temperature, and so its frequencies and the mind's speed, rise and there are ever more high-frequency wave modes to store information... ... As it contemplates, effects from the universe's past converge on it. There is information, time, and thought enough to recreate, savor, appreciate, and perfect each detail of each moment. Tipler and Barrow suggest that it is this final, subjectively eternal act of infinite self-interpretation that effectively creates our universe, distinguishing it from the others lost in the library of all possibilities. We truly exist because our actions lead ultimately to this ``Omega Point'' (a term borrowed from the Jesuit paleontologist and radical philosopher Tielhard de Chardin).

Aside from the simple fact that this ridiculous idea violates Zeno's Paradox, it is yet another unfounded hypothesis unsupported by any premises, without any proofs to support it. Only quotation and unquoted references.

Part Seven: Uncommon Sense. AKA: Quantumquantumquantumquantum.

Seriously, the word Quantum is tossed around in this section twelve times in nine paragraphs, and not once does he describe two particles interacting having just observed eachother. It's also another segment in which he says a lot without really saying anything.

In fact, Part Eight and Part Nine can basically be described in the same way. A lot of sophomoric prattle that does nothing to make a coherent point, ending with an implication of Quantum Immortality and a quotation of Shakespeare.


In short, the article offers nothing new; essentially everything within the article is derivative Quantum Mysticism, and done poorly, relying heavily on unfounded assumptions and unproven concepts. Ironically, it's dependence upon the Many Worlds interpretation of Quantum Mechanics is self-defeating. For all of the articles prattling about Wave Function Collapse and observer dependent quantum behavior, the Everett Many Worlds interpretation does away with both.

Hand this to anyone with a physics degree, and at best you'll get an eye roll, at worst, you'll be laughed out of the room. Much less anyone with a passing interest in studying Physics.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2009, 03:17:48 am by Ampersand »
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