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[Lav]

I have a theoretical question.

In Dwarf Fortress, any construction that does not violate Dwarven Physics can be built by dwarves.

Or not?

Are there any constructions which are theoretically possible, but cannot be built by dwarf labour?

Note that I do not mean obvious game rule violations like making a hole in the floor of the bottom z-layer or building a wall at the very edge of the map.

Intuitively, I think anything that can be imagined, can be built. But can someone prove this? Or even better, prove that the opposite is true by presenting a design that does not violate dwarven physics but cannot be built?

[CaptainNitpick]

Or even better, prove that the opposite is true by presenting a design that does not violate dwarven physics but cannot be built?

Simple. You cannot cover an entire z-level of an embark site with constructed walls. You can get down to one missing wall, but there's nowhere to stand to put the last one in.

[Shades]

Or even better, prove that the opposite is true by presenting a design that does not violate dwarven physics but cannot be built?

Simple. You cannot cover an entire z-level of an embark site with constructed walls. You can get down to one missing wall, but there's nowhere to stand to put the last one in.

Because building on the very edge of a map isn't possible I assume you mean the whole z-level bar the edge. In which case you have somewhere to stand as you place the last wall.

[CaptainNitpick]

Because building on the very edge of a map isn't possible I assume you mean the whole z-level bar the edge. In which case you have somewhere to stand as you place the last wall.

Well then, time for me to mosey on over to the facepalm thread. I tried to salvage my statement, but it turns out you can build stairs at the edge. I was under the impression that floors and bridges were the only things allowed to be built there.

[shadowform]

Or even better, prove that the opposite is true by presenting a design that does not violate dwarven physics but cannot be built?

Simple. You cannot cover an entire z-level of an embark site with constructed walls. You can get down to one missing wall, but there's nowhere to stand to put the last one in.

This is more because you can't build walls at the extreme edge of the map, and less because you don't have space.  The edge of the map thing is also an arbitrary restriction, which is why it isn't counted.

Also, the question is moot.  In the real world, what we can do is limited by physics.  In Dwarf Fortress, Dwarven Physics is limited to what the game engine (and thereby the player) can do.

To put it another way, the simulation can't factor in variables for which it has no information - if gravity is turned off in the INIT file, gravity is no longer a part of Dwarven Physics.  In the real world we can't go mess around with our raws and turn our household pets into thermonuclear weapons (which is probably for the best), but by the standards of Dwarf Physics, cats spontaneously radiating the head of a thousand suns is perfectly acceptable for the simple reason that the programming says they do.

[Doomshifter]

Or even better, prove that the opposite is true by presenting a design that does not violate dwarven physics but cannot be built?

Simple. You cannot cover an entire z-level of an embark site with constructed walls. You can get down to one missing wall, but there's nowhere to stand to put the last one in.

This is more because you can't build walls at the extreme edge of the map, and less because you don't have space.  The edge of the map thing is also an arbitrary restriction, which is why it isn't counted.

Also, the question is moot.  In the real world, what we can do is limited by physics.  In Dwarf Fortress, Dwarven Physics is limited to what the game engine (and thereby the player) can do.

To put it another way, the simulation can't factor in variables for which it has no information - if gravity is turned off in the INIT file, gravity is no longer a part of Dwarven Physics.  In the real world we can't go mess around with our raws and turn our household pets into thermonuclear weapons (which is probably for the best), but by the standards of Dwarf Physics, cats spontaneously radiating the head of a thousand suns is perfectly acceptable for the simple reason that the programming says they do.

So, you're saying that there is literally nothing that we can't do if Dwarf Fortress was programmed to allow it?

[Lav]

Also, the question is moot.  In the real world, what we can do is limited by physics.  In Dwarf Fortress, Dwarven Physics is limited to what the game engine (and thereby the player) can do.

Not quite true. There are Dwarven Physics restrictions, but there are dwarf movement and activity restrictions, and these two don't necessarily match.

Suppose it was impossible to drain an ocean. In this case, a stone column protruding from the ocean's floor would be perfectly legal according by Dwarven Physics, but it would be impossible to build it using dwarf labour.

P. S. On an afterthought, though, it would be perfectly possible by magma-casting it up to the surface-level and then building normally from there. Heh.

To put it another way, the simulation can't factor in variables for which it has no information - if gravity is turned off in the INIT file, gravity is no longer a part of Dwarven Physics.  In the real world we can't go mess around with our raws and turn our household pets into thermonuclear weapons (which is probably for the best), but by the standards of Dwarf Physics, cats spontaneously radiating the head of a thousand suns is perfectly acceptable for the simple reason that the programming says they do.

Tweaking the raws has nothing to do with the question. Tweaked raws create their own universe with it's own version of Dwarven Physics.

Personally, I feel the "impossible to build but physically legal" constructions can be designed using various movement-restricted locations, like aquifers or magma pipes.

[CaptainNitpick]

I think I was on the right track. Attempt number two:

On a flat map, build a single wall one z-level below the surface level at embark that is surrounded by unmined material that is not obsidian.

I think I've got enough qualifiers there.

[Shades]

On a flat map, build a single wall one z-level below the surface level at embark that is surrounded by unmined material that is not obsidian.

Assuming collapsing the whole z-level so it's all dropped one level doesn't count as surface level then I can't see any way to achieve that until we can build from above or have constructions survive a cave in.

I suppose you could change a different rock to have the [magma] tag though, maybe reword to have any magma rock (rather than obsidian).

[Shades]

On a flat map, build a single wall one z-level below the surface level at embark that is surrounded by unmined material that is not obsidian.

Nope I was wrong

Setup: flat map with ocean at the same z-level (no cliffs), use pumps to remove the ocean enough to build the wall, turn off the pumps.

The water is unmined material that is not obsidian, and the wall is at one z-level below embark.

[Lav]

Actually you introduce many more restrictions for builders than I originally intended. Which means that I have failed to correctly formulate the question in the opening post.

I don't care about the embark level. The question is about the construction itself - some design of limited size. Consider it a challenge - you must present a design that other players supposedly cannot build. However you must not limit their options on how or where to build it.

That is why embark level does not matter. Material qualifications do not matter - a wall is a wall. Whether it's constructed or not doesn't matter either - a player is completely free to build it using any method he prefers, building or magma-casting.

Now a construction that seems to qualify these restrictions and still cannot be built seems to be the following:

~~~
~S~
~~~

Where ~ is a brook tile, and S is a statue (or any other construction that can only be built from the side).

Though if brook tiles remain intact after cave-in, this construction will be possible.

[Shades]

~~~
~S~
~~~

Where ~ is a brook tile, and S is a statue (or any other construction that can only be built from the side).

Though if brook tiles remain intact after cave-in, this construction will be possible.

Or just build a construction above the middle square (at least one z-level above) then de-construct it so whatever you used to build it will fall down, this will convert that single brook square to solid land. (might have to be a cave-in but pretty sure it doesn't)

[CaptainNitpick]

Actually you introduce many more restrictions for builders than I originally intended.

Grumble grumble.

Does anybody know what happens to aquifer tiles when they're dropped? I tried searching, but everything was talking about using cave-ins to get through aquifers, rather than dropping the aquifer itself.

[Lav]

Unless my memory betrays me, they survive the drop without problems.

[Dorf3000]

Try to build a floor across the lowest level of a magma pipe.