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[Shurhaian]

An alternate way of working trade agreements might be a good thing to have.

Having the liaison still work with the broker/leader is well and good, but paging through the agreement in its entirety can be tedious.

So, what if, instead of needing to manually poke at the trade agreement each time the broker shows up, you get to fiddle trade priorities on another screen, perhaps the Broker's

• ptions screen(giving a use to that key that isn't just for the bookkeeper)? You can set what goods you want to request from each caravan, and when the caravan comes, their liaison/representative will:

• Check to see if you've entered any requests.
• If not, ask to set up your priorities then and there. This will generally be for the first caravan only, unless you leave it blank. This is not unlike how it happens now, but see below.
• If you have already entered requests, give you the option to review your requirements, or go with them as set.
• Display the review of your requests, but ONLY for items that have a non-zero priority.
• Carry on with the meeting as normal.

This could allow trade meetings to be much more painless. There are suggestions that do that in the form of reusing last year's / saving profiles - but this would be something you can edit year-round, and the next caravan to negotiate will use those updated settings. So if you're poking at nobles and see that one of them likes bronze items, you can nudge up the priorities for cassiterite, copper ore(s), and copper/tin bars right then, rather than doing it all when the liaison arrives.

Also, being able to do this for general categories - like THEY do when asking for you to export certain types of item - would be welcome. I really don't care what KIND of barrel they bring, I just want barrels. Handling that by hierarchy would also make, say, importation of leather FAR less painful. Even the most expensive leather is cheap enough to not worry about it. (And a request for "leather" might get you mixed bins like caravans that randomly bring leather will bring, which may or may not be desirable; as opposed to requesting specific leather which will bring you bins of that leather, for the most part.)

Note, however, that editing your "trade preferences" screen WILL NOT apply to negotiations already completed. Those can be reviewed in the civ screen as normal, and will not be updated until you have another meeting.

[sproingie]

+1

Meeting with the liason should be a simple matter of exchanging papers.  In fact he needn't really come in person as long as another trader carries the orders.  It always struck me as kind of silly that it's always just one guy who's ever empowered to relay the fairly meaningless trade requests from the mountainhome, not to mention the annoyance if he's killed or injured.

If the mountainhome were actually able to demand quotas or tributes, then I could see sending a dedicated envoy.

[Lord Shonus]

They'd still have to haggle over the price, even with a list of wants. That doesn't need player input any way, so this suggestion would make trade painless.

[profit]

This has been suggested a million times... LOL but its still a good idea no matter how many times the post is made...

The liaison is spammy and worthless and it should be (in a free market economy) simple to say how much you will pay for an item.

There is no haggling, either the other side want's to send goods at the price you set, or they don't.   Simple as that.

We don't need to be interrupted 4 times and adjust the sliders every time for the liaison when the poster is right, we could easily send a paper stating what we will pay for an item with the caravan.  And they can send one with the caravan stating what they will pay for certain items.

I think the only time the liaison screen should come up is if we DON'T have those sliders set in a sub menu (As kinda a noobie protection) and it should tell us that we should adjust them because it strengthens bonds or some such.

[sproingie]

Ooh I like the idea of tutorial liaisons offering oversight - long as you can turn 'em off.

"The Mountainhome is gravely concerned that in these dangerous lands, you have yet to raise even the barest militia."

"The situation of your stockpiles is troublesome.  A fortress without booze is like a Dwarf without blood."

[Safe-Keeper]

Simple solution:


Funny little detail is that after I took the screenshot and uploaded it to Photobucket, I forgot to set the ballista back to "Prepare to fire" before unpausing. It discharged its arrow, dismembering both the liason and noble, leaving the baby carried by the mother "Very unhappy" as it lay there covered in her blood and guts. The child who watched the spectacle had more sense and stood there "ecstatic".

But yes, a simple "The meeting with the liason has started - you may now make requests to the liason by accessing the Trade Depot" message would be vastly superior to the spammy "black screen, five seconds wait, sliders, black screen, five seconds, sliders" system we have now.

Ooh I like the idea of tutorial liaisons offering oversight - long as you can turn 'em off.

"The Mountainhome is gravely concerned that in these dangerous lands, you have yet to raise even the barest militia."

"The situation of your stockpiles is troublesome.  A fortress without booze is like a Dwarf without blood."

"It looks like you are trying to run a fortress. Do you need help?".

[sproingie]

"It looks like you are trying to run a fortress. Do you need help?".

And for the average beginner, the response is "By Armok's nutsack, YES I do!."

But yeah it's probably not a proper way to do a tutorial.

[Shurhaian]

I will note, first, that I tried searching for a similar suggestion, and none of the threads I looked in had something like this. If I missed one, sorry.

The liaison is spammy and worthless and it should be (in a free market economy) simple to say how much you will pay for an item.

There is no haggling, either the other side want's to send goods at the price you set, or they don't.   Simple as that.

Doing business without haggling is a recent innovation. Trade is subject to two things: how badly the recipient wants it, and how hard it was for the caravan to get it(demand and supply, respectively). In modern times prices are set, but historically that wasn't always so.

But even if it were, the trade liaison's meeting is not just a simple sales transaction. You have goods you want, and you want to get a low price for them while still making sure you get enough. The merchants have a similar agenda of their own. Both of you are trying to get the lowest prices for the things you buy, and the highest for the things you sell; and the agreement you reach sets prices for the whole year.

So maybe the spam can be toned down, but the liaison being there makes perfect sense. And trade agreements will be even more significant if, say in the caravan arc, more than one merchant from a civ starts coming per year(without triggering multiple liaisons).

We don't need to be interrupted 4 times and adjust the sliders every time for the liaison when the poster is right, we could easily send a paper stating what we will pay for an item with the caravan.  And they can send one with the caravan stating what they will pay for certain items.

I think the only time the liaison screen should come up is if we DON'T have those sliders set in a sub menu (As kinda a noobie protection) and it should tell us that we should adjust them because it strengthens bonds or some such.

Getting rid of the sliders in the frequent meetings with liaisons is exactly the point, though I still say that from the perspective of your dwarves, they ARE conducting negotiations. If your broker(or leader, for dwarves) is better at getting his/her way, you'll get a deal that's better for you - but mercantile between civilizations is rightly a matter of negotiation. Just because the actual haggling is done by the dwarves without being explicitly depicted(especially with non-liaison civs) doesn't mean it isn't there - and it belongs there.

But yes, a simple "The meeting with the liason has started - you may now make requests to the liason by accessing the Trade Depot" message would be vastly superior to the spammy "black screen, five seconds wait, sliders, black screen, five seconds, sliders" system we have now.

Well, not exactly what I have in mind, though it raises an important point. I'd intended that you could access the trade preferences through {n}obles -> {s}ettings on your broker at any time. It is worth advising the player, when negotiations begin, that it's the last chance to do so before the contract is set for the year - in the form of a message in the normal scroll, most likely. Though if the player has never touched that screen, an initial greeting message(like the one that exists now, but with the added advice to go into the {n}obles screen to change these settings, or possibly an option to go directly to the settings screen from there) followed by the usual delay would be good; and after this delay, you are presented with the opportunity to inspect both the import and export agreements, and there see any prices which are not standard.

Doing them both consecutively, rather than with the pause that exists now, would make the liaison that much less troubling.

Even if the meeting itself winds up taking just as long, removing the player interruptions(and the bug that lets them progress while, say, plotting an exploratory mining shaft or the new expansion of your living quarters) would make the process less aggravating.

Oh - and maybe increase the meeting priority at the same time(but still let "Trade at depot" trump it).

[profit]

Doing trade without haggling may be a recent invention, but when we set the slider we set what we are willing to pay.

No haggling involved already... If there was there probably would be wares that we could reach very high priority for only 130% of their normal cost.

Also haggling makes no sense... You cant haggle with a liaison, they can only take what you are offering back to their town and craftsman and it is up to them to make the goods. 

You MAY haggle with the merchants that bring the goods... maybe if they dragged the stuff from the corners of hell and battle creek, MI they would demand more for it, but not the liaison.

[Shurhaian]

Actually we set how badly we want that particular good.

And the liaison can, indeed, negotiate on behalf of their civ. So could merchants, and to some extent they do - but above and beyond that, the liaison is the one who says "this is what our people need, and this is what we can offer you in turn".

You seem to have a very narrow view of trade in general and liaisons in particular. Would you rather that the dwarves pay no attention to THEIR leadership, and do all their trading independently?

i.e. with not a bit of input from you whatsoever, from the selection of trade goods to their prices?

The liaison gives oversight to the merchants as the player gives oversight to the fortress. Streamlining the liaison is one thing, and nothing says you have to LIKE them, but arguing that they're out of place is disingenuous.

[profit]

I do have a rather narrow view of trade, I usually sit in the fun trumps realism department... and petty annoyances do not add to the fun.

The liaison seems completely out of place, I do not recall many trade caravans with an official member of the government in  them.

Most of the time its Merchant to Government or Merchant to Merchant contact.  Not Government to Government except in emergencies or in matters of MASSIVE quantities.

So... basically I think... Can him.  or only bring him along when there is reason for him to be brought... Like you did not set up what you want so he is coming to find out why... or maybe their Civ REALLY needs food or something and he is coming to ask for it directly.

Not some numbskull who you can say "Ok.. I am gonna pay 133% for this 200% for this and so I hope you bring more." That's the merchants jobs to hear that kinda stuff.

Only if you could set the amount of material you were going to receive DIRECTLY (IE: I need 60,000 Gold bars and I don't care the cost!) and need to negotiate the price would he feel like he was needed, and honestly that is the ONLY way he would not feel out of place to me.. otherwise he should be named head merchant.

As for the out of player control comment... That's retarded... Where on earth do you get the idea that just because there is no official to go between civs that their government could still not say "Ok they are only offering 60% but we have tons of stone eerings so lets send them" or "They may be offering 250% of normal value for food but we don't have enough so we are not trading it"

No where was ANY mention made of taking it out of the players hands and as far as I can tell you added that simply for bombast.

[Shurhaian]

Arguing with someone who refuses to see any deviation from his/her point of view is pointless. As such, I won't be responding any further unless you at least start acknowledging that yours is not the only meaning of fun.

[profit]

Arguing with someone who refuses to see any deviation from his/her point of view is pointless. As such, I won't be responding any further unless you at least start acknowledging that yours is not the only meaning of fun.

I accept many opposing viewpoints as possibilities, until they break logic... Then they either illustrate how it is possible for them to exist contrary to logic or they will not be considered by me.

If you could give me reason why a liaison would go against LOGIC:
A. and negotiate a price without a desired quantity.
B. and be wandering around with a caravan in a highly dangerous territory
C. and be needed at all when realistically his job can and would be handled by the merchants
D. and cannot be used to negotiate a specific quantity
E. and does not make requests on behalf of the civilization
F. and in his absence you lose the ability to tell the merchants you will pay more for an item.

Since the liaison defies logic on those points.. Unless they are all handled satisfactory, your right, pointless to argue.

Now if the liaison acted in a believable fashion, such as you said how many anvils you wanted and they said how much they were going to charge... Or he said his civ produces food and needs ore or you know.... Something worthy of being a liaison, I would find his presence justified and not be bothered by him.

Or honestly if he was just renamed to caravan master and was no longer an official part of the civilization just a member of it, I would be fine with him entirely then as well.

[assimilateur]

Simple solution

Will that break anything other than making it impossible to request stuff?

[sproingie]

Logic schmogic, it's a game, and the liaison is an attempt at a "realistic" implementation of a game mechanic that would otherwise be done with menus alone.  Unfortunately the implementation is annoying.  I'd personally be satisfied with keeping the the little liaison twit if he didn't interrupt multiple times and take nearly a whole season to run through his spiel.  It's a demand projection, not a trade summit.  Run through the whole thing on ONE screen, realism be damned.