Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Dakk]

Naa worry not, I won't go into weird ancient greek practices. Those silly greeks.

[cowofdoom78963]

You can make anything sound creepy by adding "in the way of the ancient greeks" to the end.

[The Architect]

Naa worry not, I won't go into weird ancient greek practices. Those silly greeks.

I think we're all comforted by that.

Answers: Homosexuality is a recognized psychological disease. If you want to go into some of the problems it causes and springs from (it's cyclical, so arguing origin vs effect is rather pointless) then you can refer to the problems I already listed, and a few more: promiscuity, loss of identity, gender confusion (the absurdity of "I'm a woman in a man's body!" is a common example of a related psychological disorder), etc. These problems become more and more obvious as you examine the reality rather than the theory, including the need to act out and be intentionally flamboyant (often a need for attention, identity and acceptance, similar to any insecure person's attempt to display confidence by showing out).

Humanity and morality don't change. The issues faced change, but the morality never changes. It was always wrong to mistreat people based on their point of origin or racial characteristics. They knew it was wrong then, and we know it's wrong now. People have justified mistreating each other for personal gain for all of history (including the present), and if it weren't debated as wrong they would not have felt the need to justify it. It's just as perverted (read in the literal sense) and unnatural to do some things now as it has always been to do them. It's wishful thinking to say that morality and ethics change based on how society views something. That would be to say that slavery was alright, indeed not immoral at all, in societies where it was accepted.

[cowofdoom78963]

promiscuity, loss of identity, gender confusion (the absurdity of "I'm a woman in a man's body!" is a common example of a related psychological disorder), etc. These problems become more and more obvious as you examine the reality rather than the theory, including the need to act out and be intentionally flamboyant (often a need for attention, identity and acceptance, similar to any insecure person's attempt to display confidence by showing out).

Thats because of the gay culture, it has nothing to do with being gay itself.

[Footkerchief]

On the note of sodomized young men in history generally not choosing to continue the lifestyle: Speaking to homosexuals, I've found that many of them have deep psychological problems. Problems with acceptance, father figures, love, intimacy, stability, the list goes on. Now I've met a lot of homosexuals, as my father is an antique dealer. I've met a lot of people in general, and many people have these problems. But there is a very high concentration of these problems in the homosexual community, and I'm afraid to say that a lot of vulnerable young men are drawn into it when these flaws and personal problems are exploited. Even today, it's difficult to view homosexuality as a positive thing.

So those are all caused by homosexuality itself, and not by, say, being marginalized and often hated minorities?

[The Architect]

promiscuity, loss of identity, gender confusion (the absurdity of "I'm a woman in a man's body!" is a common example of a related psychological disorder), etc. These problems become more and more obvious as you examine the reality rather than the theory, including the need to act out and be intentionally flamboyant (often a need for attention, identity and acceptance, similar to any insecure person's attempt to display confidence by showing out).

Thats because of the gay culture, it has nothing to do with being gay itself.

Gay culture has nothing to do with being gay itself? Come on now, even you can't possibly believe that. The two are unconnected? I'm not going to bother with a real response to that unless you can somehow substantiate it.

[Dakk]

Naa worry not, I won't go into weird ancient greek practices. Those silly greeks.

I think we're all comforted by that.

Answers: Homosexuality is a recognized psychological disease. If you want to go into some of the problems it causes and springs from (it's cyclical, so arguing origin vs effect is rather pointless) then you can refer to the problems I already listed, and a few more: promiscuity, loss of identity, gender confusion (the absurdity of "I'm a woman in a man's body!" is a common example of a related psychological disorder), etc. These problems become more and more obvious as you examine the reality rather than the theory, including the need to act out and be intentionally flamboyant (often a need for attention, identity and acceptance, similar to any insecure person's attempt to display confidence by showing out).

Humanity and morality don't change. The issues faced change, but the morality never changes. It was always wrong to mistreat people based on their point of origin or racial characteristics. They knew it was wrong then, and we know it's wrong now. People have justified mistreating each other for personal gain for all of history (including the present), and if it weren't debated as wrong they would not have felt the need to justify it. It's just as perverted (read in the literal sense) and unnatural to do some things now as it has always been to do them. It's wishful thinking to say that morality and ethics change based on how society views something. That would be to say that slavery was alright, indeed not immoral at all, in societies where it was accepted.

1-You mean like, last century when people believe leeches could heal everything? If so, then yes.

2-Thats what unrealistic about your argument. All humanity and morality have done throughout history is change. Its historical fact.

Also, while what cowofdoom78963 said seems ironic, its actualy true.

And so the lord sayeth:

Pay heed to Footkerchief's words, for they hold the truth.

[Roxorius]

Hey now. In describing the past, I was not condoning it, guys. It's just the simple truth that all those past societies that you called gay-friendly were actually friendly to pederasty on a closer inspection. Odd, but in each case, you will see that.

Homosexuality between grown adults has never been more accepted than now. Rarely has pederasty been less accepted. You may apply your own personal values to deciding whether each of those statements indicates a good or bad trend--I don't see the point in moralizing over the impersonal medium of the internet--but both statements are strongly supported by facts.

[LegoLord]

Somehow, it doesn't surprise me that gay people might have problems finding acceptance, given how so many people hate gay people for no actual reason.

[Duke 2.0]

Somehow, it doesn't surprise me that gay people might have problems finding acceptance, given how so many people hate gay people for no actual reason.

There was a reason. Then people forgot it and the fundamentals surrounding it that made the hate part not alright. Then they discovered there was little substance behind the fact. Then they forgot that.

 Also, I don't see what discussing how gay people work IRL has to do with a bug in the game.

[cowofdoom78963]

promiscuity, loss of identity, gender confusion (the absurdity of "I'm a woman in a man's body!" is a common example of a related psychological disorder), etc. These problems become more and more obvious as you examine the reality rather than the theory, including the need to act out and be intentionally flamboyant (often a need for attention, identity and acceptance, similar to any insecure person's attempt to display confidence by showing out).

Thats because of the gay culture, it has nothing to do with being gay itself.

Gay culture has nothing to do with being gay itself? Come on now, even you can't possibly believe that. The two are unconnected? I'm not going to bother with a real response to that unless you can somehow substantiate it.

Not all gay people were/are like that

Your just generalizing all gay people to a stereotype.

And thats not cool

also oh lord 3 new replies. You people need to slow down.

Hey now. In describing the past, I was not condoning it, guys. It's just the simple truth that all those past societies that you called gay-friendly were actually friendly to pederasty on a closer inspection. Odd, but in each case, you will see that.

"Hey everybody Im not condoning gay people, but countrys that accept them also are fond of young boys."

[Neonivek]

I think it is quite valid to seperate sex with young boys and homosexuality in general especially in light of what we know in real life that pedophiles tend to be heterosexual.

Now as for this topic, I guess I can only blame myself for where this is going.

[Roxorius]

Hey now. In describing the past, I was not condoning it, guys. It's just the simple truth that all those past societies that you called gay-friendly were actually friendly to pederasty on a closer inspection. Odd, but in each case, you will see that.

"Hey everybody Im not condoning gay people, but countrys that accept them also are fond of young boys."

I don't think you read closely enough. The receptive role of homosexuality was not accepted in any of those cultures past maturity into manhood, i.e., as egalitarian homosexuality in the modern conception of it. The earlier practices were of a dominant male "teaching" the passive boy. After reaching a certain age, the boy was usually expected to become fully "taught" and renew the cycle.

If you read that closely with comprehension, your previous response suddenly looks rushed and reactionary, lacking in the earnest desire to exchange information.

[The Architect]

I actually wrote out a very logical post, and thanked Footkerchief for his sensible comment on a deeper issue. It described the trends leading up to homosexuality, which on the male side generally involve an insecure young man with personal problems and the need for a father figure being approached by or approaching an older homosexual man. On the female side, the problems can be the same or often stem from the poor behavior of men around and involved with them.

However DF forums shot me down through a technicality "you have already replied to this post ..." and deleted it. So, this is what you get.

Homosexuality is still considered a disease within the psychological community. It's not some sort of old bogey, it's just fact. (Leeches are a notoriously bad example for your argument, as they're very often an excellent form of treatment when other methods are not available for some conditions.) It produces undesirable suffering in individuals. It can have positive effects, when people find acceptance etc, but generally speaking its effects are negative and must be factually and universally recognized as such by the psychological community in order to treat people. It's a fact they face up to, I don't see why as a non-professional in the field you could possibly suppose our opinion holds more weight than the reality they have to face in dealing with them(Edit:it).

[Protactinium]

Ooo! How gruff and manly of you to respond like that, Proactinium! If only I were a soft young boy...

My bluntness was because I dislike it whenever anyone on any forum thread goes, "New or Tangential Topic. Question? Discuss."

We already have something in the thread to discuss.

@The Architect

Humanity and morality don't change. The issues faced change, but the morality never changes. It was always wrong to mistreat people based on their point of origin or racial characteristics. They knew it was wrong then, and we know it's wrong now. People have justified mistreating each other for personal gain for all of history (including the present), and if it weren't debated as wrong they would not have felt the need to justify it. It's just as perverted (read in the literal sense) and unnatural to do some things now as it has always been to do them. It's wishful thinking to say that morality and ethics change based on how society views something. That would be to say that slavery was alright, indeed not immoral at all, in societies where it was accepted.

Do you honestly believe that morality is an unchanging static throughout history? That every person's act back then that was considered immoral today was also considered immoral back then?

That suggests to me that you also believe that all societies today have the same values and ethics, and that you believe each individual today has the same standpoint morally on different issues.