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Author Topic: Occam's Razor: Dwarven Magic  (Read 5265 times)

Draco18s

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Re: Occam's Razor: Dwarven Magic
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2008, 03:31:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Capntastic:
<STRONG>Feel free to skip this part; it's just aimless rambling.   To me, the appeal of DF lies a lot in that it's not all numbers, as your D&D or Final Fantasy goes.  A dragon is a terrifying creature not because it has four hundred hit points and level 4 armor- it is terrifying because it's a dragon.  Likewise, due to a semi-low power ceiling, a dwarf can be puny or powerful, depending on many factors- it isn't like, say, D&D, where a level one fighter is always absolutely worthless to the point of physically not being able to land a hit on a level 10 fighter.</STRONG>

I completely agree.
(Although a level 1 fighter can trip a level 10 fighter easily, in fact, a level 20 fighter has just about the same probability of falling over--and then we add the gheyness of the spiked chain...)
D&D has to be about numbers that the players can munch on because if there weren't numbers and rules that the players knew, well, the game would be unplayable as SOMEONE would have to know them and they'd have to be easy to use.

4E dragons are going to be bad ass though.  They'll once again be scary because they're f*ing dragons (and all the dragon colors will be different too, compaired to the 3.5 dragons: a white is just as likely to cast fireball as a red--WTF?).

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mutant mell

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Re: Occam's Razor: Dwarven Magic
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2008, 03:39:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Draco18s:
<STRONG>
4E dragons are going to be bad ass though.  They'll once again be scary because they're f*ing dragons (and all the dragon colors will be different too, compaired to the 3.5 dragons: a white is just as likely to cast fireball as a red--WTF?).</STRONG>

Really?  Is 4th edition going to be worth picking up?  I know a lot of people had complaints about 3.5, and unepic monsters was one of my complaints.

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UltimaPhantom

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Re: Occam's Razor: Dwarven Magic
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2008, 04:37:00 pm »

I like that idea of runic items. It seems to fit into dwarven universe.
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Draco18s

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Re: Occam's Razor: Dwarven Magic
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2008, 08:39:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by mutant mell:
<STRONG>Really?  Is 4th edition going to be worth picking up?  I know a lot of people had complaints about 3.5, and unepic monsters was one of my complaints.</STRONG>

It should be, my group is picking it up, even though we do have some complaints.
Wizards have an at-will Magic Missile (though it's not the 3.5 MM) and druids are...less druidic.

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Belteshazzar

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Re: Occam's Razor: Dwarven Magic
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2008, 03:44:00 pm »

I have` probably already said so but I like the idea of magic channeling through runes (with special bonuses and effect from materials and rune type?) especially as related to engravings. Lord knows we do enough engraving to justify it. This would require some control over what we engrave, but I would like the option to commission specific some engravings or decorations anyway as opposed to having 50 engravings of chease, carp or elephants or dwarfs, surrounded by dwarfs.

The idea of a local and possibly worldwide magic flow (yeah, more flows, but I love em) seems too good to pass up. Magic that can be diverted and flows from areas of great power (perhaps produced by certain site features like cities, chasms, pits ect) perhaps even a need to tame and regulate powerful magic with runic dams for fear of storms of raw chaotic energies overtaking your citizens.

Perhaps my worst fear is that magic be made too tame too predictable. I honestly don't care if you toss fireballs at a flick of the wrist, or can call down the angels or the dead to fight for you with the raw faith of the masses and the proper sacrifices, or spend untold hours organizing that library or runic mandala. All I care is that we are not in total control. I don't want hard science I want the awesomeness of SCIENCE! with lightning, glowing giant mutants, mistakes, things man should not know. That is how I want my magic.

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Draco18s

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Re: Occam's Razor: Dwarven Magic
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2008, 09:42:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Belteshazzar:
<STRONG>Perhaps my worst fear is that magic be made too tame too predictable. I honestly don't care if you toss fireballs at a flick of the wrist, or can call down the angels or the dead to fight for you with the raw faith of the masses and the proper sacrifices, or spend untold hours organizing that library or runic mandala. All I care is that we are not in total control. I don't want hard science I want the awesomeness of SCIENCE! with lightning, glowing giant mutants, mistakes, things man should not know. That is how I want my magic.</STRONG>

You want Scary Awesome Wild Magic.  Where 20% of the time the caster blows himself up instead. :P

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Othob Rithol

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Re: Occam's Razor: Dwarven Magic
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2008, 10:31:00 pm »

Plese Note: Everything I talk about below I mean to be in Fortress Mode. In Adventure Mode, the magic should be more diverse.

Whereas Runes have gotten a lot of attention (which they deserve) I think another magical sub discipline needs to be discussed (without crooning about what is in the notes to be done in the next ten years, yeah I know it is mentioned): Alchemy.

If the world maintains the idea that dwarves don't usually go around hurling fireballs, but instead make items of grand power bedecked with runes, it follows that the industrious little smiths are also master alchemists.

I am talking about potions, but not just about potions. I'm also talking about combining eye of newt and toe of frog to make a reagent that the smelter can mix with steel to make wyrmsbane, a metal that burns the flesh of all reptiles. I'm talking about treating your exceptional steel bolts with firesnake venom, to rain flaming death on the gobbos. And most of all I am talking about mixing lye and ash to make soap that will actually clean your dwarves!

But seriously, I do see the dwarves as being a highly ordered race, and as such a great deal of their magic should be intertwined with their industry. Like the OP I also think any magic added (to fortress mode) should be based on, or atleast highly integrated with, existing game structures.

Engraving runes (with the skill we already have in-game) could be a smooth way to make some nifty items. The combinations suggested would also be interesting, but I'd prefer a straight effect. Engraving each and every weapon to boost its damage, and every armor piece to make it better sounds like a good add-in.

The idea of a magic flow was brilliant. I can see the dwarves carefully putting the mithril floodgate in place (because a steel one would be destroyed by the arcane energies). This could be used to build the Mana Forge and the much coveted Mana Lab, which make all the potent items. And don't forget the mana engine...400 mechanical energy in a 3x3 workshop? Nice. Of course, when the Chaos demon spawns nearby, don't say WTF and spam the forums.

Th OPs ideas for mood artifacts are seriously good, and would provide a good start for magic. One missing aspect is that you might need an artifact to make a magic item...that 9600 coin artifact tower-cap earing might be your ticket to a flame-proof dwarf.

For randomness and wildness: I just don't see a dwarf being drawn to it. The exception of course being REALLY potent stuff. While working on the potion of immortality (which would remove the whole population's max age cap) in the lab, the alchemist accidentally animates the crypts and turns himself into a dwarf-lich...I can deal with that. Even botching a fireball potion and making a flaming workshop not only seems reasonable, but absolutely fitting.

I really don't want to see all my dwarves hurling fireballs. I want to see some of them hurling fire potions. I do want a Dwarf Vizier Noble, that rains magic destruction when he is able to tear himself away from the party. I don't want to see magic become ridiculously common, but I do want to see some common uses for magic.

And mostly, I want to see a friggin potion of healing so my Fortress Guard isn't just a troupe of cripples.

death_cookie

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Re: Occam's Razor: Dwarven Magic
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2008, 01:12:00 am »

The year is 1052, the place is Swelteredrings, in the Fingers of Turmoil, and Sigun Earthtower, Legendary weaponsmith, is tasked with producing iron swords to fulfill a Duke's mandate. He is unhappy due to his fisherdwarf wife's death by carp. He produces two exceptional swords, so far so good, but as he starts on the third sword he feels strangely inspired, and abandons the normal course of work, shutting himself down in his workshop and ranging far and wide for necessary materials. Lo and behold, The Autumnal Blizzard-Boulder is born, an iron sword. It menaces with spikes of carp bone. It is encrusted with glowing symbols of power in goshenite. It severs limbs with -every blow-.

But what is this!? Goblins attack! One elite swordsdwarf grabs The Autumnal Blizzard-Boulder and, almost singlehanded, defeats two whole squads of goblin pikemen. Hurrah! The corpses are hastily carried back to the dump near the bonecrafter workshops.

A month later, goblin zombies with several missing limbs shuffle and hop and crawl out of the dump, seeking a feast of flesh.

On the dread Winter of 1054, it happens again.

Only after the horrendous zombie troll mishap of 1055 is it decided that the corpses of monsters killed in combat with The Icy Constructs (the squad containing the wielder of The Autumnal Blizzard-Boulder) should be dumped in the magma, to be on the safe side.

...

So what have we got?

Legendary skilled dwarves should be able to create artifacts outside of one-in-a-lifetime accidental occurrences. There is a tiny tiny possibility that Legendary dwarves can be inspired to create Artifacts in the course of their ordinary work. If the task they are performing fulfills a noble's mandate, that tiny tiny chance is increased (though it remains tiny, this gives nobles a bit more of a reason to exist).

Artifacts could have explicitly magical powers beyond their mere Artifactness. I really really like the OPs ideas, and would just like to see them expanded. The principle (Magic = Artifacts and Moods) is brilliant, however.

Artifact effects could be divided into generic powers (available to any item), class powers (furniture, weapons, wearable item powers) and item powers (beds, crowns, maces - this is what the OP had in mind). There should be several different effects possible for every class/item. One crown could grant the user extraordinary conversational skills, another might make him King (brilliant idea by the OP) another might make all purring maggots on the map become his pets (All hail the King of Purring Maggots), etc.

There could be a big list of possible effects. These could be divided into tiers of outlandishness/rarity, with the more common ones occurring more frequently. They could also be associated with different spheres or themes (such as the ones listed under deities).

Items could be cursed, which is to say, there could be a list just like the above, only full of negative things. There would be a small chance an item would be cursed, a chance which could increase if: the dwarf making it is Possessed, the dwarf making it is unhappy, the item is the result of a macabre mood, the fortress is located in an evil place, the item is exceptionally powerful.

Curses could be something like the story above (for a really high-level curse), or they could just make the owner's temper worse, or make other envious dwarves begrudge the user, or make him more likely to suffer specific types of injuries, whatever.

Ideally (and this is really going over the top) occurrences such as the death of a relative or the vicinity of magma, or something might push the dwarf towards a particular theme (death, or fire). The dwarf's chosen deity might affect this too. These things would influence the choice of effects from the list above. Overcomplicated? Indeed. But this -is- Dwarf Fortress. I doubt something like this could be fully implemented, and all the little effects are definitely Bloat, but hey...

Other things that might increase the likelihood of magical stuff happening could be, say, the use of Alchemical materials (materials made in the Alchemist's laboratory) or Adamantium. All sorts of things that could be added as    modifiers to the base odds involved, really.

...

This still leaves the creation of magical Artifacts out of the player's direct control, but maybe a little less random. And it still leaves magic as, largely, an extension of the craftsdwarf's innate skill, which I think is a cool theme. The specifics, runes or engravings or magic stones, or whatever, are kinda secondary as far as I'm concerned. They're the menacing spikes and hanging rings of magic, which is to say, decorative.

The system -behind- the magic would be more complex than the OP suggests, but it would be pretty much the same from the player's POV. Moods happen, magical artifacts appear. These would just be more varied and tailored to the specific circumstances.

...

Now, if you absolutely must have  more control, you could have another skill, and you could give a specific magic-using dwarf (however defined) orders to enchant/empower/magic existing items (the items would have to be Masterwork quality at least, say, to still have dwarven magic tied to skill). I'd probably have this only produce items with minor powers, however. And add there's a high probability of failure, with a small possibility of cursing the object, or even destroy it. The masterwork object. Because that makes for hilarious tragedy, and that's Dwarf Fortress.

Alchemy's also good as a source of magic stuff for dwarves. I wouldn't want a system where you end up micromanaging things like giving the potions of strength to the haulers, but I'm sure something a bit more organic could work, and use of ointments and potions to accelerate healing or whatnot could be automated, for sure.

...

Simple? Nope. Elegant? Nope. But isn't simple elegance overrated?

[ March 24, 2008: Message edited by: death_cookie ]

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mutant mell

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Re: Occam's Razor: Dwarven Magic
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2008, 05:13:00 pm »

A rune-based (or at least having magic with runes) would translate very easily into tattoos, which would be all sorts of fun.
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Sithlordz

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Re: Occam's Razor: Dwarven Magic
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2008, 05:40:00 pm »

Indeed it would.  Perhaps a fire rune and an earth rune to make yourself into a magma man.  Hell, maybe runes corresponding to metals to make yourself into that form of golem.  Branded onto your skin, and carved from whatever metal you can find.  Perhaps a good enough rune would make you into a colossus.  Adamantium colossus adventurers. Kek.
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Mikademus

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Re: Occam's Razor: Dwarven Magic
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2008, 08:08:00 pm »

Thinking about it, magic is really a problem for Dwarf Fortress. Face it, that which maked DF special is that it is a mixture between an anthill and SimCity: when the game works well we never interact with individuals at all, and any micromanagement is really an indication of an unfinished or broken gameplay aspect.

The problem with magic, as we usually deal with it in games, is that it IS an individualistic or micro-management thing. Yet, in DF we never directly control units. Thus, creating D&D-ish magicians with repertoires of spells, is against the style of DF and above probably the capacity of the AI to handle (though it would likely work well in adventure mode).

The best DF types of magic would be those related to the existing structure and interaction mode, or of a similar macro-management nature. Thus artificing (making magic items) and magic engravings (on walls, items etc) are good candidates. They can be influenced but not determined or controlled. Runic engraving in particular could be like gem studding is now: you engrave existing items, which will add value, and possibly powers. The alchemy lab is another good dwarvish magic candidate.

As for battle mages, that should be something indirect only. In fact, one solution would be that we have clerics rather than mages for dwarves. Dwarf religion strikes me as militant rather than pacifistic, and one order would intermittently create warrior priests that smash goblin heads and heals dwarf bodies, another sect may turn out flame throwing adepts.

In fact, between artificing, runic engraving, alchemy, and various priesthoods I think we have exhausted every single aspect for possible magic systems suitable for fortress-mode Dwarf Fortress, where the most important criteria is avoiding micromanagement and instilling a manageable level of chance.

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mutant mell

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Re: Occam's Razor: Dwarven Magic
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2008, 09:45:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Mikademus:
<STRONG>In fact, between artificing, runic engraving, alchemy, and various priesthoods I think we have exhausted every single aspect for possible magic systems suitable for fortress-mode Dwarf Fortress, where the most important criteria is avoiding micromanagement and instilling a manageable level of chance.</STRONG>


What about a squad of apprentice-level mages in my military shooting fireballs at oncoming goblins?

I like all of the ideas that you brought up, but there is an elegant way to introduce a few more aspects to it without a lot of micro-managing: a university-system.  We can appoint a university, "draft" people into the school (or they could volunteer, or, when there is an economy, have them pay/have the parents pay), and they could learn how to use magic there, in the "traditional" (far from it, actually) mage for use.

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ChaosFollowing

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Re: Occam's Razor: Dwarven Magic
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2008, 12:06:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by mutant mell:
<STRONG>What about a squad of apprentice-level mages in my military shooting fireballs at oncoming goblins?</STRONG>

I have NO problem with this sentence if we're talking about humans. Or other goblins(though I wouldn't call them mages). I begin to have reservations if this instead applies to elves, and in the case of dwarves(which we ARE talking about), these reservations become serious.

I agree completely with Mikademus(that Dwarves are your typical artificers, engravers, explosive alchemists, and hammer-priests), but for the slightly different reason that the Playable Races should have EXTENSIVE differences covering virtually all aspects of playstyle, including magic.

If you want fireball-hurling mages supporting your military, and dwarven grenades aren't your thing, then play as Humans. Or hire/enslave some talented human mages or goblin shamans for your Fortress. Or MOD it in.

I realise that this is entirely a matter of personal preference, but IMHO a dwarf raising a hand and having a fireball shoot out of it is just wrong. Doubly so when their civilization has virtually the same ability through alchemy or artifice.

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Lyrax

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Re: Occam's Razor: Dwarven Magic
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2008, 12:32:00 am »

Can you really see dwarves planting sunberries?  Outside?  It's not an image that really comes easily, but my dwarves do it all the time.  I don't like arbitrary limits based on race, saying "oh, well you can't do that because you're a human/dwarf/elf/goblin/flying spaghetti monster."

Screw that.  Maybe my civilization doesn't know how to.  Maybe I have to capture or hire a human mage to teach my dwarves how to do it, or import a book that costs a ton of money before we can learn.  Maybe I even have to go about it a different way, training my fireball-throwing dwarves from a pyrophilic religion that regards magma as the sacred blood of the earth, and metals as the gift of the gods to dwarfkind.  But I should be able to do it.

It's ok that it's easy for one race and hard for another (elves can just walk up to a unicorn and tame it, but dwarves need a Dungeon Master... etc.) but I hate the idea that humans and dwarves and elves are all so different that they can't EVENTUALLY do most, if not all of the same things.  They should really only differ in what comes naturally to them.  Humans can't buy steel from the homeland.  Elves don't start with plump helmets.  But humans can smelt steel, if they have the resources.  Elves can farm underground, if they dig out a farm and import some seeds from the dwarves.

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ChaosFollowing

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Re: Occam's Razor: Dwarven Magic
« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2008, 01:08:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by Lyrax:
<STRONG><snip></STRONG>

I totally agree, provided there is sufficient difficulty in such endeavours. If Dwarves start out completely unable to cast fireballs, but one visit from a human mage remedies the situation, then the blockade is of such a stature that it might as well not even be there.

If your dwarves can cast fireballs after collecting rubies for artifact wands, sacrificing yearly to their God of Fire, AND consultation with a wandering Archmage, then yes...I could live with that.

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