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[nil]

Low level butchers should sometimes botch the job, causing the wounded and possibly berserk animal to escape.  Wouldn't be a big deal if you were killing kittens, but if you were culling your elephant herd you'd want to be very careful...

[KenboCalrissian]

As soon as I read this, my mind reeled in terror at the clutch of giant eagles I currently have tamed in my fortress...

This is really interesting, and I'd like to see this extended to other animal-related jobs, such as training war animals.  Regular taming shouldn't be a problem since the animal is confined in a cage and you can wait safely until you're sure it's tame.  Training war animals, however, possibly requires the trainer to be less than gentle with the animal - not to mention the trainer needs to be able to keep control of it once it's taken a thirst for blood.

[QuakeIV]

Heh, imagining a shredded butcher, in a blood-drenched butchery, as a elephant with a light gray wound to the head storm through the fortress.

[Misterstone]

When I read this, considering the recent developments with body parts and butchery, I though you meant an accident while carving up a dead animal... perforated intestines, gall bladder, etc.  Pretty gross stuff tbh...

[qoonpooka]

When I read this, considering the recent developments with body parts and butchery, I though you meant an accident while carving up a dead animal... perforated intestines, gall bladder, etc.  Pretty gross stuff tbh...

Add to this: If hacking away at an already dead animal, a botch makes that animal RISE FROM THE DEAD AND KILL

[Grendus]

It's really not that hard to kill a tame animal if you have the stomach for it. Beheading, strangulation, or exsanguination aren't that hard to do if both yourself and the animal are calm.

Now, a dwarf hesitating and not correctly delivering a fatal blow might make sense, or a dwarf with low butcher skill producing more chunks and less meat or no skin. Overall though I don't like it.

[nil]

I'm not sure I agree that beheading or strangling livestock using fifteenth century technology could really be described as "easy" absent a lot of practice.

Now that I think about it, though, we already have an incredibly detailed system for modeling attacks and wounds.  Butchery could be treated as a skill, either alone or on top of combat skills, that determines the power and accuracy of a killing blow.  If for whatever reason it fails to incapacitate the animal, the butcher will repeat the attack until either it is or the animal fights back ferociously enough to force a retreat.  There might a be skill-related roll for the RNG to simulate how well the animal is restrained, but the combat system could do a lot of the work.

edit:  Or you could do slaughtering at a restraint rather than the butcher shop, and let escapes come naturally when Toady implements creatures escaping restrains in general.

[Grendus]

We'll agree to disagree then, I guess. I have no experience with this, I just don't think it would be too hard to behead, say, a kitten. Once again, you'd have to have the stomach for it, I'm talking about how hard it is to kill the kitten, not to bring yourself to kill it. Slashing a cow's throat might be more difficult, I guess, maybe a difficulty modifier based on size?

As for wounds, you could treat butchering as a very powerful attack to the animal's neck. Might cause a problem if you've modded in creatures that don't have one though, might have to add in a tag in the body files that mark where butchery wounds are inflicted.

[Euld]

I have a couple funny stories about botched real life butchery.  None of them are first hand accounts, but they are anecdotes from a comedian named Garrison Keiller (spelling, blah).  Once, as an adult, he was butchering chickens with his dad, and when they had reached the last chicken, Garrison offered to behead the last one since his dad had done all the beheading up to that point.  Garrison missed the first shot and imbedded the axe in the wooden surface they were using.  Without missing a beat, Garrison beheaded the chicken, however, the now headless chicken body jumped up and ran outside.  It outran both of them and ran into a neighbor's yard, where the neighbor walked outside, saw the chicken, quickly put it out of its misery then took it inside to prepare it for dinner later   His dad theorized that the blade got "hot" when it hit the wood, which cauterized the wound enough for the headless chicken to function for a brief period of time.

There's another story about a knife slipping and a bleeding pig getting lose then collasping in the owner's front yard.  That's about it to the story though xD  It would certainly be amusing (although startlingly graphic) for beginning butchers to accidently let bleeding animals escape.

[Remalle]

startlingly graphic

Startlingly?

[Euld]

1. Startle. 
2. Drop the e. 
3. And ingly.
4. 
5. PROFIT!

[nil]

We'll agree to disagree then, I guess. I have no experience with this, I just don't think it would be too hard to behead, say, a kitten. Once again, you'd have to have the stomach for it, I'm talking about how hard it is to kill the kitten, not to bring yourself to kill it. Slashing a cow's throat might be more difficult, I guess, maybe a difficulty modifier based on size?

As for wounds, you could treat butchering as a very powerful attack to the animal's neck. Might cause a problem if you've modded in creatures that don't have one though, might have to add in a tag in the body files that mark where butchery wounds are inflicted.

Yeah, a powerful attack to the head or neck was just what I was thinking of (in the second post that is).  You're right that dwarf shouldn't have much of a chance of botching a kitten butchery, so using the existing combat system to account for creature size and toughness is probably a good idea.

I've heard a pig killed before; it was about a ten second process and from the sound of it I'm sure it would have ran like hell if it hadn't been tied down.  Otherwise I've never seen someone kill anything larger than a chicken by hand.  But I've worked with large livestock; given enough stress they can be very unpredictable and very difficult to stop.

(also startlingly is a perfectly legitimate adverb)

[Grendus]

Maybe require a rope or chain for building a butcher's workshop. A botched butchery might cause the animal to go berserk and have to be put down, either by soldiers or fortress guardsdwarves. Once material strength is implemented, I could see a good mechanic for an animals strength competing against the strength of the rope, so a good steel chain for the butchers workshop might be a good investment.

[KenboCalrissian]

I don't see an issue with smaller animals like kittens.  After all, the butchers need something easy to train with until they're ready for larger animals, just like most other skills.

[Vattic]

When I read this, considering the recent developments with body parts and butchery, I though you meant an accident while carving up a dead animal... perforated intestines, gall bladder, etc.  Pretty gross stuff tbh...

Which is what I thought too. Can you not taint the meat with the contents of certain organs?