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[GlyphGryph]

INFILTRATE//ELIMINATE//KILL

The Theme:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybrids_(Starsiege)
The theme is Starsiege, an series of games that include the popular Earthsiege, Cyberstorm, and Tribes titles. Human machines called Cybrid, led by Prometheus, have turned on their creators after they were used for endless war, deciding that humans had clearly proved themselves incapable of handling the Cybrid destiny. During the war, they do interesting things like tying dozens of screaming babies and women to the front of their warmechs to decrease enemy morale, releasing hostages after implanting bombs in them, and creating "Trojan Horses" by scooping out the brains of important figures and filling it with a Cybrid intelligence matrix.

Of course, warmechs don't fit mafia, but there's a lot of subterfuge and politics going on in the background, the most important part being the Trojan Horse program. the Imperial Police rule the colonies with an iron fist, and unrest is beginning to grow...

The Setting:
A group of workers at a remote Martian mining base, have had a string of bad luck lately. First, there's the dust storm - its been raging for days, and shows no sign of letting up any time soon, cutting off communications and isolating the base.
As if that wasn't bad enough, there was recently an accident in the mines, and several good employees were lost.
But the bad news is about to get worse - during the autopsy, it is discovered that one of the miners is no longer human - he has been turned into a Trojan Horse. Suddenly, the Cybrid threat is very real, as each of the workers turn their eyes to each other and realize that any of their friends could be the enemy. The worst news is that the conversion was clearly recent - there must be a Cybrid still on the base, and he has the ability to make more like himself.

The Scum:
The Mafia is a single Trojan Horse cybrid, with the ability to convert other players to the cybrid cause. When the last scum is eliminated, the game ends.

The Town:
The mining group is also split between those with Rebel and Imperial sympathies. The rebels realize the threat the cybrid infiltrator poses, but also the opportunity, and the Imperials know that the rebels are planning to make a move. The group with the allegiance of the most players at the end is considered the winner.

CURRENT REVISED ROLES

Active Rebel Roles (Has quickchat, though only organizer starts in it):
Organizer - Has the ability to invite players to Rebel Quickchat. If a rebel uses an ability on them, he learns the identity of that rebel.
Saboteur- Has the ability to roleblock another players action.
Persuader - Has the ability to offer membership in the Rebellion to another player. He must PM the host with the desired target, and the offer (along with any argument) will be passed on. He does not know if he succeeds or fails.
Informant - Has the ability to investigate a person each night to determine their sympathies. Attempts against cybrids return untruths.
Fanatic - Has a single day or nightkill. Dies in the process when used, on account of it being a bomb.

Imperial Officer Roles:
Overseer - His loyalty to the Imperial Empire are known to all other players, but his identity isn't. Knows Imperial Officer roles, and results of their actions. May make public announcements as Overseer via the host, and play as a regular player in the thread. Has the power to declare a hammer dropped.
Enforcer - May commit nightkills.
Interrogator - Has the ability to investigate a person each night to determine their sympathies. Attempts against cybrids return untruths.
Investigator - May search a players rooms and belongings, which will reveal the following roles, if applicable: Cybrid Infiltrator, Rebel Fanatic, Imperial Enforcer, Doctor, potentially some other roles.

Neutral (Could be held by Imperials or Rebels) Roles:
Guard - May simultaneously Protect/Roleblack another player during both day and night. This is a public ability, and must be declared. Works against kills AND conversions.
Technician - Day action, public action, may announce a public "Inspection" against another player to publicly reveal his current cybrid/human status.
Doctor - May target a player to protect. That player may not be night killed.
Weak - This player dies if the cybrid attempt to convert him.
Healthy - This player can survive through a single kill attempt, but not a lynch.
Miner - The standard townie.

Cybrid roles (has quickchat). A cybrid role will be "randomly" chosen upon a successful conversion:
Machinator//Infiltrator - The only one capable of creating more cybrids. He has a small stock of positronic brains (4) that were smuggled in, which means he must avoid the investigator.
Inquisitor//Analyzer - Capable of detecting a targets sympathies and abilities. Allegiance+Role.
Hunter//Killer - Has a night kill.
Redactor//Reprogrammer - Each day, may repogram another cybrid unit to randomly change their role. If this is attempted against a metagen, his existance is revealed and the unit is destroyed.
Metagen//Traitor - Does not count as scum. Wins if the game ends and he is still alive.
There may also be a few other special roles I'd want to keep secret.

So what does everyone think? Should I avoid hosting it now, but keep it mind for the future? Is it a stupid idea? A good idea? Let me know!

[webadict]

... How would you know of you were winning?

Also, never have a confirmed guy OR a guy that knows all the roles. Yes: OR.

[Leafsnail]

... How would you know of you were winning?

Also, never have a confirmed guy OR a guy that knows all the roles. Yes: OR.

You are bookadict.  You are a magnet for hopelessly broken roles.  You know the roles of all players in the game.

[Pandarsenic]

Except when I got that role, I really didn't know that. All I knew was someone else thought my role was broken.

[Leafsnail]

I've since realised it wouldn't actually be hugely broken in the hands of the town, since noone actually falseclaimed their role in the entire game.  It would be broken as scum though... which is why I considered adding "And their teams" to the fake known role.

[GlyphGryph]

First, confirmed guy - Bang! is essentially Mafia with three sides and one confirmed, and it works (as long as the confirmed is "town"). What is it about a role that makes confirmed roles so bad?

Is this because a confirmed guy is overpowered, or underpowered? Remember, with the conversion thing, that means someone who with "confirmed" loyalties, may very well NOT stay that way beyond the first day, and the cybridization process may change their role as well. I was originally planning on having his role power BE "confirmed loyalties", but I thought he needed a bit extra, I might split up the powers if he sounds to overpowered.

And... there isn't anyone that would know all the roles. Where did you get that idea?

There would be (hypothetically, most likely) 6 imperials, 5 rebels (or vice versa), and 1 cybrid to start. The game would end if all Cybrid were eliminated. There are opportunities for the players to discover how many cybrid remain, later on.

[dakarian]

Hmm, two town groups and a cult.  I like the concept.  The towns would be pushing each other to try to gain advantage but worried about the cult taking over.  That you use a weak cult helps with the fact that the cult has a Superrecruit (aka. Once recruited you retain your powers).

Balance aspect: Make sure that only the first cybrid can recruit.  The others can survive if the first one dies but don't let them recruit.  Cults are more powerful than mafia thanks to their recruiting powers.  With that and the 'not always recruit' aspect to it, it should balance alright.


The trick won't be balancing the cybrid but with balancing the power roles to the whole thing.

1. Imperial Overseeer.  The problem is overpoweredness.  He knows all of the roles and, thus, can more easily piece together who is imperial and who is a rebel.  The only way to stop him is to kill him, and everynoe will know who made the kill.  Of course, that makes the imperial doctor will protect him each day and there's no way to vote for him without showing who you are.

Result: he fits story but is too strong for the game as it stands.


Is there a way to make him work?  I think so, thanks to the cybrid threat. 

1. Make him hidden rather than starting off confirmed.  He knows all of the other roles but no one knows who he is.

2. If the Cybrid converts him, he always dies but the Cybrid gains access to his information before he dies. 

Result: you now have a person with a boatload of information that would NOT want to be found out.  Not an easy role to play and hard to abuse. 


2. The 'confirmed' aspect to many of the roles.

The Cybrid makes this a major problem.  To use your power, you'll need to out yourself, making you easy Cybrid meat. 

....or would it.  Wouldn't WIFOM cause this to be a major mess of difficulty? 

Day 2: Enforcer kills a player, is proven to be an Enforcer

Night 2: Cybrid convers someone different

Day 3: "Enforcer must've been converted!"  LYYYYYYYNCHHH!!


I would mostly aim for the Imperials to be stronger than the rebels, but make it easy for the rebels to play off as imperials (no investigative roles for imperials, for example).  The Organizer shouldn't have their loyalties given to an imperial target, for example, and excluding the Overseer, all roles can be Imperial or Rebel.  Have the Organizer show up as 'miner' btw so he has a nice fakeclaim to work with.

Btw: idea of a Rebel Recruiter.  They can invite a person each night into a Neighbor setup (they get to talk to everyone via quicktopic).  Sounds powerful until you add in that all recruits will succeed, even if the person is a Cybrid or Imperial. 

The ideal goal for the rebels would go like this:

Organizer uses power to look for Recruiter.  If found Organizer knows they found a rebel, but Recruiter will be told who the Organizer is.  Recruiter recruits the Organizer, then the Organizer locates rebels for the organizer to gather up. 

The rebels try to gather together and use the Cybrid issue to their advantage.


So the Imperials = Town, Rebels = weak mafia, Cybrids = weak Cult


It needs a good deal of balancing to make sure it doesn't blow up but overall I like it. 


As for running it, we now have a Que system (see Mafia Threshold post).  Feel free to put the game into the Discussions sections while you organize it.  Meanwhile you can use this thread to organize and balance the game.  Feel free to take your time and, while you're doing it, go ahead and get into some of the more complicated games so you can get a feel on how such games feel.  Then, once you are ready, you can put it in the que.  As for you running it yourself.. if you feel up for it: just be ready because hosting a complicated game gets VERY involved and requires a lot of organization.  If you feel up for it, go ahead.

Thus the Imperials act as the traditional Town (bad guys as town? Of course!).  Rebels end up being a sort of quasi-mafia that tries to establish itself.

[CobaltKobold]

Sounds like Bladerunner's Replicants.

First, confirmed guy - Bang! is essentially Mafia with three sides and one confirmed, and it works (as long as the confirmed is "town"). What is it about a role that makes confirmed roles so bad?

Actually, the Outlaws are Lynchers to the Sheriff. The Renegade is SK, and there is no mafia- outlaws don't know each other, nor does sheriff know deputies.

Also, your votes (bullets) are randomly acquired in BANG!

[GlyphGryph]

Okay, so the analogy wasn't particularly apt.

I think I know where the confusion came from - when I said he had files on any employee, I meant he had the ability to investigate to determine whether someone was an Imperial or a Rebel. But I don't like that any more, so I'm going to do something different.

The big issue here is there is going to be a lot more uncertainty about allegiance than in normal mafia games. The Rebel and Cybrid roles will be secret, and the regular townie roles will generally be confirmed, but with three distinct sides and switching allegiances, it would be pretty hard to say a confirmed role is really overpowered. In a normal mafia game, a confirmed role is a huge deal, because not only do people know what you are, they probably know who you are. And roles may change due to the cybrid conversion proccess. So I think its a crapshoot whether being public is a boon or a problem.

Heres my new role ideas, working off of some of what you said. Imperials will be town, Rebels will be "semi-scum", since they don't need to kill all the Imperials to win (the game ends when the cybrids die). The cybrids, however, do not actually get a night kill as a group either - they rely on their abilities. Players may have a more than one role (Especially since roles may change), though some roles are not compatible. Not all roles will neccesarilly appear, either:

Rebel Roles (Has quickchat, though only organizer starts in it):
Organizer - Has the ability to invite players to Rebel Quickchat.
Saboteur- Has the ability to roleblock another players action.
Persuader - Has the ability to offer membership in the Rebellion to another player. That person has the option (but not the obligation) to switch allegiances. May not target the overseer.
Informant - Has the ability to investigate a person each night to determine their sympathies. This does not work against cybrids.
Fanatic - Has a single day or nightkill. Dies in the process when used, on account of it being a bomb.

Imperial Roles:
Overseer - His loyalty to the Imperial Empire are known to all other players. Knows Imperial roles, and results of their actions.
Enforcer - May commit nightkills.
Interrogator - Has the ability to investigate a person each night to determine their sympathies. This does not work against cybrids.
Investigator - May search a players rooms and belongings, which will reveal the following roles, if applicable: Cybrid Infiltrator, Rebel Fanatic, Imperial Enforcer, Doctor.

Neutral Roles:
Guard - May simultaneously Protect/Roleblack another player during both day and night. This is a public ability, and must be declared.
Technician - Day action, may "Inspect" a willing volunteer to discover whether he is cybrid or not. (This requires a claim, but it doesnt require the claim to be true, of course). It also requires a willing volunteer.
Doctor - May target a player to protect. That player may not be night killed.
Weak - This player dies if the cybrid attempt to convert him.
Healthy - This player can survive through a single kill attempt, but not a lynch.
Miner - The standard townie.

Cybrid roles (has quickchat). A cybrid role will be "randomly" chosen upon a successful conversion:
Machinator//Infiltrator - The only one capable of creating more cybrids. He has a small stock of positronic brains that were smuggled in, which means he must avoid the investigator.
Inquisitor//Analyzer - Capable of detecting a targets sympathies and abilities. Allegiance+Role.
Hunter//Killer - Has a night kill.
Redactor//Reprogrammer - Each day, may repogram another cybrid unit to randomly change their role.
<CONFIDENTIAL> - <CONFIDENTIAL>

[webadict]

... Why would you choose to join the Rebels if you had the choice?

The problem with a 3-side mafia is really obvious: If you're in the Imperials, tell it to the Overseer on Day 1. All the Overseer has to do is find out who's not in the Imperials, and then kill them all. It's the Cybrids that have a crappy time though: You either win since you're able to convert whoever's left, or you lose, because you get killed first two nights.

There's the problems.

[CobaltKobold]

... Why would you choose to join the Rebels if you had the choice?

The problem with a 3-side mafia is really obvious: If you're in the Imperials, tell it to the Overseer on Day 1. All the Overseer has to do is find out who's not in the Imperials,

Consider Assassin mafia. If you're a guard, all you have to do is claim to the king, and then...OK, imperfect analogy, assassin doesn't know the king. But if they did(assume changing to SK instead of targeted-killer), then they'd claim such and you'd be no better off than when you started. And they'd kill the king first off because he's the only CT.

[GlyphGryph]

The problem with a 3-side mafia is really obvious: If you're in the Imperials, tell it to the Overseer on Day 1. All the Overseer has to do is find out who's not in the Imperials, and then kill them all.

Isn't that just essentially describing the Town? With the problem that a) just because you were an Imperial when you claimed doesnt mean you are anymore, and b) The overseer can only find out, for sure, one person at a time. He's got his core Imperial players he knows at the start, but those at most half the possible imperial players, and they might not be Imperial as of day 2. If you claim, you may very well be lying.

As to joining the rebels:
And there's lots of reasons you might join if you have the choice. The biggest one is just a situation where it looks like they are on the winning side. Think of a situation where they look perfectly tied - if you switch, that means you are WINNING. An enforcer or Interrogator that switches would give a huge boost to the Rebels (since the overseer would implicitly trust you and your results). If anything, I was thinking if there wasn't enough reason for them NOT to switch, all things considered.


The overseer IS a power role, and he's supposed to be - but he's going to have two different groups trying to kill or even convert him. The Imps rely on him, and thats a big weakness. He's got a big advantage early on, but the longer the game goes the worse off the imperials are, since both other groups can potentially increase their numbers, AND they know who to shoot at.

[dakarian]

Ahh, the possible role list.  Now let's see:

Organizer, of course, the one I suggested.  I get giddy when I think of the possibility of the Enforcer accidentally being brought into that Quick Chat

One thing: does that mean the Organizer has to guess who is who?  One misguess and he's basically ruined.  Perhaps if the Investigator or Persuader target him that the Organizer is told of the other person.  That way the Organizer doesn't have to risk everything but instead wants to be found out by the 'right people'.

Saboteur: roleblocker, definatlly need a few of those floating around.

Persuader: I'm guessing that the Persuader learns if it succeeded or failed and the target doesn't know who asked.  Very curious as to how the 'voluntary conversion' will work.

Informant: balance check: if he inspects a cybrid, it'll show the OLD sympathies rather than letting it fail.  Otherwise, fail=cybrid=too strong against the cult. 

Fanatic: suicide bomber.  never can go wrong with that.

Imperial Overseer: More balanced this time, since he has no PM abilities.  Still the big "what stops him from getting instabombed/converted?" issue.

Enforcer: Vig.  Looks like he's a normal vig now.

Interrogator: similar to informant: cybrid target should show old sympathies.

Investigator: odd role cop.  like the Infiltrator catch he has.  Don't understand what he'll be able to do with the other roles checks.  I'm guessing you just wanted him to see one of each group, but that's not necessary.  Just having him check for, say, the Organizer and the Infiltrator is fine enough.


The Neutrals:

The concept confuses me.  Neutral.. does that mean they could be either imperial or rebels?  If so then that's fine, though give far far more to the Imperials since they can't recruit.

As for the roles, the only one at issue is the Technician.  It's basically a one-shot deal since he'll be converted the following night if only to get him stopped.  Fakeclaiming as him is just foolish since it messes up the town and gets you killed due to the same issue. 

So does it need to change?  Perhaps not so dramatically.  If he's going to end up a one-shot, lets make him useful.  Instead of taking a willing volunteer, make the inspection a normal day action that's declared to the public.  That way, the tech will sit until they are just about sure who one of the cybrids are, then goes for the public inspection.  He will die the next day/night if the town has any brains but then it become a rather awkward suicide bomb that only hurts cybrids.


Cybrid roles: you'll have some balancing issues here.  Remember that the Cybrid have a half kill/half convert power they'll use every day.  That alone makes them deadly.  Now you've given them a chance at a combo cop/rolecop or a SECOND kill on top of it.  It's tempting to give them something other than a bland 'no role' when they just lost their old power, but the kill/convert power of the infiltrator is good enough.  When you combined the fact that the town will be strugling with the semi-mafia Rebels, the Cybrid have a very good chance of winning this game without any additional powers.

[CobaltKobold]

Overseer dies night one, fairly plainly...imperials have no doc.

[dakarian]

I was under te assumption that the neutrals could be Imperial sympathetic at the start, thus doc would want to protect the overseer.  There's NOTHING to protect against the Cybrid though so Conversion N1.

I stil think the Overseer shouldn't be known.  If you want him to have power over the Imperials, give him this power:

LoudSpeakers:  send any message to the host and that host will tell the main thread. i.e.

(PMed to host): Loudspeak: "Kill Litia, NOW!"

Host posts on the thread:
The Honorable Overseer informs you, "Kill Litia, NOW!"


There, ability to control the people, but without the 'ruined in night 1' feature.  Add in that the Overseer only knows the Officiers and their actions, not the other Imperial sympathics in the neutral side (and the neutrals need to be Imperial Symps since Imp=Town and a group with no alliegence will stop caring about the game FAST) and there you go.