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Author Topic: Religious/Catholic influence on politics (In US)  (Read 15532 times)

ChairmanPoo

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Re: Religious/Catholic influence on politics (In US)
« Reply #150 on: December 08, 2009, 02:04:55 am »

E Coli might be able to survive your stomach, but it doesn't thrive in it.
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Timst

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Re: Religious/Catholic influence on politics (In US)
« Reply #151 on: December 08, 2009, 02:33:14 pm »

And how exactly do you "pump women stuff out of you" exactly ? What part of you, which stuff, how ? Because if we're talking about "pumping" viruses or bacterias out of your blood stream... well, that make absolutely no sense at all.

On the topic of homosexual marriages, I'm pretty confident that it will be established during our lifetime (unless you're going to die within the next 10 years or live in an "exotic country").
I mean, it's already legalized in some american states (probably the only situation where USA are more "socially developed" than Europe, hehe), and in the more developped countries of Europe (ie, scandinavia) and Spain. In the rest of the union, there's also "alternative marriages" that allow gay or lesbian couple to be officialy recognized. For instance in France, there's the PACS, which is basically a "light" version of the official marriage.

Leafsnail

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Re: Religious/Catholic influence on politics (In US)
« Reply #152 on: December 08, 2009, 03:00:19 pm »

Plus a lot of Christians have misconceptions about Christianity (maybe they should be a separate religion from the ones that don't have those).  There's evidence of that in all those people who go into a rage over the topic of homosexuality, but will then eat a cheeseburger or shrimp (both of which, according to their section of the bible, are equal offenses to homosexuality.  I personally think the guy who wrote that was a nut job rather than a legitimate prophet).
So basically "If I don't agree with it, it isn't true".  What kind of central doctrine is that?

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Concerning homosexuality: It is in the Bible that homosexuality is wrong. That being said, I think that many Christians take it too far, for instance the "God Hates Fags" group. I am forced to either accept that homosexuality is against God's rules and therefore wrong, or I can throw the Bible and the rest of my faith completely out the window.
I chose the second, and have never regretted it.

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It depends, if the cold in something I ate and hasn't entered by bloodstream yet?
Sexual transmitted diseases infect someone pretty much immediately through the mucous membranes...  Besides, sexually transmitted diseases tend to be treatable and a compartively minor effect of rape.
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LegoLord

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Re: Religious/Catholic influence on politics (In US)
« Reply #153 on: December 08, 2009, 04:16:49 pm »

Yes, but redefining marriage legally doesn't force you to redefine what your religion thinks of it.


If the legal definition of "marriage" doesn't care what gender you are, that doesn't stop you or your church from caring. It just stops them from making other people care who don't want to.
I wasn't actually trying to reference gay marriage at all.  More the fact that people just jump right into it (regardless of sexuality) as if it's just another fun little thing to do with your date.

Quote
Concerning homosexuality: It is in the Bible that homosexuality is wrong. That being said, I think that many Christians take it too far, for instance the "God Hates Fags" group. I am forced to either accept that homosexuality is against God's rules and therefore wrong, or I can throw the Bible and the rest of my faith completely out the window.
I chose the second, and have never regretted it.
That wasn't the point.  He was saying that ultimatum isn't supported by the Christian religion itself, only some stupid people that don't understand it.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Religious/Catholic influence on politics (In US)
« Reply #154 on: December 08, 2009, 04:20:01 pm »

But it seems pointless even having a central doctrine if you can eliminate parts of according to your own personal beliefs.
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LegoLord

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Re: Religious/Catholic influence on politics (In US)
« Reply #155 on: December 08, 2009, 04:26:06 pm »

No, you see, all this "gay is evil" stuff is not even an official part of Christianity to begin - Leviticus was annulled.  On top of that, even if it were, the people preaching anti-gay stuff would be hypocrites, because they have all sinned as well.  Then additionally, the main thing the religion's doctrine is to encourage neighborly love and goodwill, not zealously fundamentalist attempts to make everyone else fit your view of Christianity (the latter being what the anti-gay groups do).
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"Oh look there is a dragon my clothes might burn let me take them off and only wear steel plate."
And this is how tinned food was invented.
Alternately: The Brick Testament. It's a really fun look at what the bible would look like if interpreted literally. With Legos.
Just so I remember

Leafsnail

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Re: Religious/Catholic influence on politics (In US)
« Reply #156 on: December 08, 2009, 04:49:45 pm »

No, you see, all this "gay is evil" stuff is not even an official part of Christianity to begin - Leviticus was annulled.
Really?  I must have missed the memo from God withdrawing his incontrovertible word...
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LegoLord

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Re: Religious/Catholic influence on politics (In US)
« Reply #157 on: December 08, 2009, 04:58:39 pm »

No, you see, all this "gay is evil" stuff is not even an official part of Christianity to begin - Leviticus was annulled.
Really?  I must have missed the memo from God withdrawing his incontrovertible word...
Jesus getting nailed to the cross.  That was the memo, according to Christianity.
Kinda hard to miss.
Edit:  It's why we can eat ham.  To the below:  That same testament has the quote "I hate the sin, not the sinner" from Jesus.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 05:08:54 pm by LegoLord »
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"Oh look there is a dragon my clothes might burn let me take them off and only wear steel plate."
And this is how tinned food was invented.
Alternately: The Brick Testament. It's a really fun look at what the bible would look like if interpreted literally. With Legos.
Just so I remember

Cthulhu

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Re: Religious/Catholic influence on politics (In US)
« Reply #158 on: December 08, 2009, 05:02:13 pm »

Well, homosexuality is mentioned in the New Testament as being bad too.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Religious/Catholic influence on politics (In US)
« Reply #159 on: December 08, 2009, 05:25:09 pm »

No, you see, all this "gay is evil" stuff is not even an official part of Christianity to begin - Leviticus was annulled.
Really?  I must have missed the memo from God withdrawing his incontrovertible word...
Jesus getting nailed to the cross.  That was the memo, according to Christianity.
Kinda hard to miss.
Edit:  It's why we can eat ham.  To the below:  That same testament has the quote "I hate the sin, not the sinner" from Jesus.
Jesus says nothing about homosexuality being ok in the new testament.
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Jude

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Re: Religious/Catholic influence on politics (In US)
« Reply #160 on: December 08, 2009, 05:48:07 pm »

No, you see, all this "gay is evil" stuff is not even an official part of Christianity to begin - Leviticus was annulled.
Really?  I must have missed the memo from God withdrawing his incontrovertible word...

OK, it's not true that Jesus is supposed to have "cancelled" the law. First of all, the law was never supposed to apply to non-Jews. At first, Christianity was a Jewish sect, but they decided pretty quickly that non-Jews who became Christians didn't have to follow the Law, and this was hammered home by some revelation somebody had where all food was declared clean.

But Jesus didn't "annul" the laws. Read your bible (and preferably, know your history) before you just throw stuff out there. He even says at one point "I came to fulfill the law, not to abolish it" (not the correct words, but that's the gist). Of course, he does this by apparently flouting the law (violating Shabbat, hanging out with unclean people and Samaritans and social rejects, proclaiming himself to be God, etc). But at no point does he "annul" the Jewish laws.

Also, on Jewish laws: the rationalizations about them being things that made sense at the time are all flimsy. Basically, they're just traditions to enforce in-group mentality and, according to some, keep Jews from associating with other cultures over food, which is one of the most universal forms of human bonding. If it served the people in charge of the Israelites to keep them as separate as possible from "the nations" then food and purity restrictions, which made them unclean by even associating with outsiders, would serve the purpose very well. Also, given people's tendency to conflate morality with contamination and moral condemnation with disgust, you have a ready made way for religious commands and food practices to intertwine.

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Well, homosexuality is mentioned in the New Testament as being bad too.
This is true, but keep in mind the guy writing wasn't Jesus. Jesus never mentions homosexuality and barely touches on sexual matters, other than to protect an adulteress from being stoned by pointing out that everyone accusing her was also a sinner, and one instance where he talked to a woman who, it's implied, has loose morals (she's had 5 husbands and is living with a man she's not married to) and he just tells her to "go and sin no more" or whatever, but doesn't specifically mention any sexual rules.

IMO everything Paul (and the other writers of the NT letters, all of which are of uncertain authorship) should be taken with a grain of salt, as they don't necessarily represent the teachings of Jesus, rather, they represent the views of that writer in regards to the situation of the person or  group they were writing to. Sometimes they even directly contradict the sayings or example of Jesus in the gospels; for example when Paul tells the Roman church to submit to earthly authorities because they are ordained by God, and there's similar advice in another letter...this is, of course, directly contradictory to what Jesus taught.

Of course, when you get to that, the gospels are the same. They were all written by people with agendas too, and in a time when historical accuracy as we know it was second fiddle to building a narrative that proved the points you wanted it to prove. They contradict each other both in terms of narration and chronology, and the nature of Jesus' message (John is most radically different from the others, but all of them vary somewhat) And that's not even to mention the apocryphal gospels that didn't make the cut because the orthodox deciding what to canonize didn't like them...
« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 05:51:48 pm by Jude »
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Blacken

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Re: Religious/Catholic influence on politics (In US)
« Reply #161 on: December 08, 2009, 06:30:08 pm »

No, you see, all this "gay is evil" stuff is not even an official part of Christianity to begin - Leviticus was annulled.
Really?  I must have missed the memo from God withdrawing his incontrovertible word...
Jesus getting nailed to the cross.  That was the memo, according to Christianity.
Kinda hard to miss.
Edit:  It's why we can eat ham.  To the below:  That same testament has the quote "I hate the sin, not the sinner" from Jesus.
Wrong. Read your own Bible.

No, you see, all this "gay is evil" stuff is not even an official part of Christianity to begin - Leviticus was annulled.
Really?  I must have missed the memo from God withdrawing his incontrovertible word...
Theologically he is on shaky ground at best. The prevailing opinion tends to agree with him (although only when convenient). The sacrifice of Jesus Christ is intended, they allege, to replace the trials and tribulations and the restrictions of the chosen people--the Jews--and obliterate the old laws.

The problem is that the people who agree with them don't read their own bloody Bible. Matthew 5:17-18 put into Jesus's mouth that "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished" (NIV). Which suggests that all'a'them Christians who have cheeseburgers are in really deep shit, if they want to draw on Leviticus and Deuteronomy and the rest of the hellfire-and-brimstone books to rationalize their gay-hate.

EDIT: Jude gets it. Good man! One quibble, though: "render unto Caesar" is ascribed to Jesus, not to Paul. Other examples exist (such as the only prohibition on polygamy being for a deacon--that's from Corinthians) that better prove your point.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 06:34:19 pm by Blacken »
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Vester

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Re: Religious/Catholic influence on politics (In US)
« Reply #162 on: December 08, 2009, 07:10:43 pm »

Well, there's a reason I like Mark's gospel the best. It's very plain.
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Mechanoid

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Re: Religious/Catholic influence on politics (In US)
« Reply #163 on: December 08, 2009, 07:43:44 pm »

[Never mind, the entire situation is too fubar]
« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 07:45:28 pm by Mechanoid »
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Lord Dakoth

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Re: Religious/Catholic influence on politics (In US)
« Reply #164 on: December 08, 2009, 09:59:17 pm »

So basically "If I don't agree with it, it isn't true".  What kind of central doctrine is that?

It's not about ignoring the central doctrine. It's about a disagreement of what the central doctrine actually says.

Let me clarify something, again...

The Bible does say that homosexuality is wrong. The Bible doesn't say that we should treat homosexuals like sub-humans. But some people (the "God Hates Fags" people) treat them poorly anyways. Someone who runs homosexuals into the ground for being homosexual is being a hypocrite because they're not perfect either. What the Bible actually says is that we're supposed to show "the love of Jesus" to others, regardless of how bad of a person they are.


OK, it's not true that Jesus is supposed to have "cancelled" the law. First of all, the law was never supposed to apply to non-Jews. At first, Christianity was a Jewish sect, but they decided pretty quickly that non-Jews who became Christians didn't have to follow the Law, and this was hammered home by some revelation somebody had where all food was declared clean.

But Jesus didn't "annul" the laws. Read your bible (and preferably, know your history) before you just throw stuff out there. He even says at one point "I came to fulfill the law, not to abolish it" (not the correct words, but that's the gist). Of course, he does this by apparently flouting the law (violating Shabbat, hanging out with unclean people and Samaritans and social rejects, proclaiming himself to be God, etc). But at no point does he "annul" the Jewish laws.

Yes and no. The "Law" (the Ten Commandments) is God's standard, basically what we have to live up to in order to be "perfect." It applies to everyone, but the sucky thing is that no one is perfect. Guess what? If you're not perfect, you're guilty of death... but the punchline is that God swoops in with his master plan, and decides to basically take the punishment. Incarnated as a human (Jesus,) he lives a perfect life, and then is executed, even though he's perfect and therefore innocent.

Basically, the penalty, the "fine" if you will, has been paid in advance, and that's why we don't have to live up to all these impossible standards. It's like if you get a $500 driving violation and your friend pays for it out of his own wallet. You can't afford to pay the $500, but you don't have to, because your friend did it.

So yes, he did fulfill them, but not by "flouting" the Law. The Ten commandments applied to everyone, but Jesus fulfilled them by living the perfect life and standing in for the punishment, not by disobeying the extra rules that the temple Pharisees created themselves.

IMO everything Paul (and the other writers of the NT letters, all of which are of uncertain authorship) should be taken with a grain of salt, as they don't necessarily represent the teachings of Jesus, rather, they represent the views of that writer in regards to the situation of the person or  group they were writing to. Sometimes they even directly contradict the sayings or example of Jesus in the gospels; for example when Paul tells the Roman church to submit to earthly authorities because they are ordained by God, and there's similar advice in another letter...this is, of course, directly contradictory to what Jesus taught.

Of course, when you get to that, the gospels are the same. They were all written by people with agendas too, and in a time when historical accuracy as we know it was second fiddle to building a narrative that proved the points you wanted it to prove. They contradict each other both in terms of narration and chronology, and the nature of Jesus' message

Yes, Paul says to submit to earthly authorities, but how does this contradict what Jesus taught? Unless I seriously missed something, Jesus wasn't some punk anarchist with leather and a mohawk.

On your statement on the Gospels... they're "all the same," yet they contradict each other? Citation needed.
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