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[ChairmanPoo]

Christianity is supposed to be about free will, and the choice to do what's right.

That's debatable. The core of the religion is about an one time substitutive sacrifice which is supposed to redeem a wickedness that is in people by default. Free will does not necessarily have any part to play in this, and in fact there are openly deterministic christian denominations (IE: Calvinism). In fact, given that the other's definition of "free will" is ambiguous enough, you could argue about their stance on the determinism debate as well.

[Vester]

Technically, Christianity is also about socialism.

EDIT: No, really, it is. I don't know why socialism is such a dirty word in US politics, but there you go.

[Osmosis Jones]

Because it sounds like something those dirty commies would do, and good, Go'-Fearin' Murcans can't have that

Seriously, McCarthy-era politics were scary, America has come a long way since then.

[Neonivek]

And how exactly do you "pump women stuff out of you" exactly ? What part of you, which stuff, how ? Because if we're talking about "pumping" viruses or bacterias out of your blood stream... well, that make absolutely no sense at all.

From what I understand about the proceedure I was refering to. It effectively removes everything from the Uterus and surrounding areas.

What ended up happening in this conversation makes no sense.

People ended up saying things like "Would a Stomach Pump remove a virus?" and I was like "What if the virus/cold was in your stomach" and they were like "No Virus can survive in your stomach that makes no sense" and I was like "It makes perfect sense in context to the converstion" and THEN it got weird "How could a stomach pump remove an STD!?!" and then "Wait? how could they possibly drain STDs from a woman's bloodstream"

[Leafsnail]

The Bible does say that homosexuality is wrong. The Bible doesn't say that we should treat homosexuals like sub-humans. But some people (the "God Hates Fags" people) treat them poorly anyways. Someone who runs homosexuals into the ground for being homosexual is being a hypocrite because they're not perfect either. What the Bible actually says is that we're supposed to show "the love of Jesus" to others, regardless of how bad of a person they are.

You're correct.  It suggests we kill them immediately, giving us no chance to treat them like sub-humans.

Christianity is supposed to be about free will, and the choice to do what's right. There's a big difference between that and forcing people to not engage in a sin that harms no one but themselves, and especially not forcing people who don't belong to the religion in the first place, and especially not hijacking a secular governmental authority in order to do it.

I'd respectfully disagree.  The bible itself says that sinners and non followers are all going to hell, no exceptions.  It's great if modern day Christians are tolerant, but it is not something derived from the actual religion.

From what I understand about the proceedure I was refering to. It effectively removes everything from the Uterus and surrounding areas.

But the disease would already be in the victim's bloodstream by that point.  Anyway, as I said before, STDs are a comparitively minor effect of rape.

[Earthquake Damage]

Seriously, McCarthy-era politics were scary, America has come a long way since then.

Or has it?...

DUN DUN DUN!

[Vester]

Christianity is supposed to be about free will, and the choice to do what's right. There's a big difference between that and forcing people to not engage in a sin that harms no one but themselves, and especially not forcing people who don't belong to the religion in the first place, and especially not hijacking a secular governmental authority in order to do it.

I'd respectfully disagree.  The bible itself says that sinners and non followers are all going to hell, no exceptions.  It's great if modern day Christians are tolerant, but it is not something derived from the actual religion.

Naw, I think you're extrapolating too much. John 14:6 goes 'Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."'

Which certainly does seem to indicate that everyone else is royally screwed. But the gospels at least don't explicitly say, "EVERYONE ELSE IS GOING TO HELLLLLL"

[Jude]

EDIT: Jude gets it.

As usual 

Good man! One quibble, though: "render unto Caesar" is ascribed to Jesus, not to Paul. Other examples exist (such as the only prohibition on polygamy being for a deacon--that's from Corinthians) that better prove your point.

Well, Jesus' saying about "render unto Caesar" has been interpreted lots of ways...the one that I buy (since it's consistent, instead of contradictory, with the rest of his message) is that money belongs to the kingdoms of the world rather than the kingdom of God, and he's saying to leave money to the worldly rulers since it is not important to God. Also, an interesting thing about that story; he was arguing with the Pharisees and told  them to pull out coins to use as an example. The fact that they (who had a lot of power and standing in the Jewish community) were carrying around Roman coins also showed that they were sellouts.

The thing from Paul (and there's another, even more blatant, example in another NT letter, can't remember which though) on the other hand, basically tells people to support the governments they live under and even buy into the values of the culture they live in. Needless to say, that's the polar opposite of what Jesus taught. It may be that the letter writers wanted people to do that so they wouldn't stick out as much and reduce their chances of getting fed to the lions. In any case, that writer was not Jesus and if the two contradict, it seems pretty obvious which one it makes sense for a Christian to follow.

[Jude]

The Bible does say that homosexuality is wrong.

No, it doesn't. It says that the practice of a man having sex with a man is an "abomination." That is ALL. It does not say that a homosexual orientation is wrong, nor that two men being in love is wrong, nor that two women having any sort of sex with each other is wrong. People extrapolate that from a verse that doesn't actually say it.

Yes and no. The "Law" (the Ten Commandments) is God's standard, basically what we have to live up to in order to be "perfect." It applies to everyone, but the sucky thing is that no one is perfect. Guess what? If you're not perfect, you're guilty of death... but the punchline is that God swoops in with his master plan, and decides to basically take the punishment. Incarnated as a human (Jesus,) he lives a perfect life, and then is executed, even though he's perfect and therefore innocent.

Basically, the penalty, the "fine" if you will, has been paid in advance, and that's why we don't have to live up to all these impossible standards. It's like if you get a $500 driving violation and your friend pays for it out of his own wallet. You can't afford to pay the $500, but you don't have to, because your friend did it.

So yes, he did fulfill them, but not by "flouting" the Law. The Ten commandments applied to everyone, but Jesus fulfilled them by living the perfect life and standing in for the punishment, not by disobeying the extra rules that the temple Pharisees created themselves.

The Law is not just the Ten Commandments. Ask a Jew about this. There's 613 mitzvot, among lots of other guidelines.

Yes, Paul says to submit to earthly authorities, but how does this contradict what Jesus taught? Unless I seriously missed something, Jesus wasn't some punk anarchist with leather and a mohawk.

Have you read the gospels?

Jesus is outrageously anti-establishment and countercultural (counter to the cultures of his time and counter to all mainstream cultures now) if you take the time to read the gospels. He's anti-Rome, anti-Temple-establishment, anti-empire. Check it out.

Also, Dakoth, the gospels do contradict each other. Any Christian scholar who has studied them will tell you this. You can't rationalize yourself away from facts. What it MEANS that they contradict each other is up to you, but it's an undeniable fact

[KaelGotDwarves]

Yeah, Lewis Black was right

The christian god became a lot nicer after having a son, because the god of the New Testament was generally benevolent and forgiving, while the god of the Old Testament was a serious asshole. I had to read both for classes, multiple translations and interpretations too.

As an atheist Buddhist I was all 

[Jude]

Yeah, there's basically no way to reconcile OT God and NT God as the same deity.

[Lord Dakoth]

The Bible does say that homosexuality is wrong. The Bible doesn't say that we should treat homosexuals like sub-humans. But some people (the "God Hates Fags" people) treat them poorly anyways. Someone who runs homosexuals into the ground for being homosexual is being a hypocrite because they're not perfect either. What the Bible actually says is that we're supposed to show "the love of Jesus" to others, regardless of how bad of a person they are.

You're correct.  It suggests we kill them immediately, giving us no chance to treat them like sub-humans.

I'm not trying to start a fight, but please present some sort of argument or rationalization before you start making bullshit generalizations.

Jesus is outrageously anti-establishment and countercultural (counter to the cultures of his time and counter to all mainstream cultures now) if you take the time to read the gospels. He's anti-Rome, anti-Temple-establishment, anti-empire. Check it out.

I've read the gospels multiple times. Although Jesus does go contrary to some of the Pharisees' rules, it is because he believes that they are immoral, not because he has some special grudge against the Temple. Keep in mind that he is ultimately submissive to the punishment that the Pharisees and the Romans sentence him to.

I see Jesus kind of like a Martin Luther King Jr. type of guy, but the way you're describing him, he's like Rage Against the Machine.

[G-Flex]

The Bible does say that homosexuality is wrong.

No, it doesn't. It says that the practice of a man having sex with a man is an "abomination." That is ALL.

If you read the article I linked to earlier, there's a very strong case that "abomination" is actually a really poor translation of the actual word used.

When "to'ebah" refers to the breaking of a ritual law it might be better translated "ritually improper," or "involves foreign religious cult practice."

And even if you take it to mean that the Bible says that homosexuality is objectively wrong, for everyone, and a sin, there's still the issue that those same parts of the bible talk about the stoning and the genocide and the not eating crawfish and yadda yadda.

[Jude]

Yeah, PLUS the thing I was saying earlier about how the Law is only meant to apply to Jews anyway. So I guess buttsex is only a sin for Jews...

[KaelGotDwarves]

@Lord Dakoth: No, I believe he's saying that Jesus was a hippie; All that "we are all God's children" peace and love unto everyone, fighting those in power who are corrupt, helping the sick and the poor, golden rule 'treat everyone as you want to be treated' kumbaya bullshit