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[KaelGotDwarves]

There are also studies that show pre-marital sex can cause problems with marriages (mostly when it's with the person you marry).

I just wanted to comment on this.

Those scientists are probably not getting laid or the studies are erroneous because I know, and can speak for many others when I say many marriages have floundered due to no sex until marriage. I used to go to a Mormon university where everyone married young. OH GOD THE HORROR STORIES I heard about guys and girls trying sex for the first time having gotten no sex ed.

You wouldn't invest your future livelihood into something without testing it first?

[Leafsnail]

That's another thing, I suppose - sex is part of a healthy relationship, and if you cannot have a good sex life, the marriage will often struggle severely.

[G-Flex]

It stands to reason that when couples are more comfortable with each other before marriage, the marriage itself is likely to be more well-conceived (no pun intended) and be more healthy. No reason why sex should be an exception to this.

Fact of the matter is that there's already too dam many people on earth right now.

As a general statement, sure, but the overpopulation problem is seriously overstated, at least in the developed world, where birth rate isn't really all that high at all, just barely outpacing deaths.

[LegoLord]

I said sex, not sex education.  It's entirely possible and there have been many people to do it.

Just how young, anyway?  Cause if it's college, they shouldn't be getting married so soon anyway. 

My parents are not married.

They have been together for 24 years, and are still together today.

Well, that isn't terribly common.  These sorts of things are based on what's common.  When a scientist does an experiment to find the density of X element, and 85% of the results approximate to Y, then he can ignore the conflicting result Z.  Or average it in, since this example is a purely quantitative observation.  But that sort of situation, well, averaging gets weird results like 2.41 kids being the average number in a family.

Let me rephrase what I said.  When couples have major problems, it is found that a relatively (as compared to those without such problems) large portion had premarital sex.

That's another thing, I suppose - sex is part of a healthy relationship, and if you cannot have a good sex life, the marriage will often struggle severely.

Stability is also good.  Multiple partners before hand doesn't help with stability.  Since you can't be 100% that you'll actually marry a given individual, it's recommended that you just wait.  Edit:  THis is mostly because it has much more psychological significance than other dating things.

[Earthquake Damage]

Let me rephrase what I said.  When couples have major problems, it is found that a relatively (as compared to those without such problems) large portion had premarital sex.

Before jumping to conclusions from that statement, recall that correlation does not equal causation.

[KaelGotDwarves]

When couples have major problems, it is found that a relatively (as compared to those without such problems) large portion had premarital sex.

Which studies are these? I have in fact heard the opposite on many occasions in psych and sociology classes, having gone to a conservative university.

After research it appears that's the claim the Catholic church's website makes.

heh!

Also,
http://www.adherents.com/largecom/baptist_divorce.html
"Christians are more likely to experience divorce than are non-Christians," Barna Research Group, 1999-DEC-21, at: http://www.barna.org/ Barna no longer has this report online. However, a review of the report is at: http://www.adherents.com/

"Conservative, born again Christians" have a higher divorce rate than catholics and atheists/agnostics.

More reporting/studies on the matter
"Bible belt has nation's worse divorce rate," CNN.com, 1999-NOV-12. Online at: http://www.cnn.com/ (Cache copy as of 2000-FEB-11. The page has since expired.) A similar report is at: http://www.divorcereform.org/
David Crary, "Deep in the Bible Belt, a counterattack on the nation's worst divorce rate," Detroit News, 1999-NOV-11, at: http://detnews.com/
John Rossomando, "Born-Again Christians No More Immune to Divorce Than Others, Says Author," CNSNews, 2002-JAN-21, at: http://www.cnsnews.com/
"Bible Belt Leads U.S. In Divorces," National Center for Policy Analysis, 1999-NOV-19, at: http://www.ncpa.org/
"U.S. state divorce rates...including 2004 data." Divorce Reform, at: http://www.divorcereform.org/

Evangelicals (one of the largest proponents for abstinence only sex education) in fact have the highest divorce rate among American religious groups/Americans in general.

[Blacken]

Let me rephrase what I said.  When couples have major problems, it is found that a relatively (as compared to those without such problems) large portion had premarital sex.

What kind of liar are you listening to? That's the most preposterous thing I've heard in a while, and I accidentially caught Glenn Beck on television the other day. No reputable source (if I'm reading this right, you seem to be a Catholic--your priest is not a reputable source, think about it, he's never even gotten his dick wet) would tell you that--because it isn't borne out by evidence.

And as you are making the silly claim, back it up. APA-recognized journals. Right now. Surely if it's "found", it'll be categorized there. And you had better be able to back it up as something that has some actual correlative factor, not just "see? these people did!". Don't worry about the math behind the statistics being too hard for lil' ol' me to understand, I'm sure I'll muddle along.

Shit, I took a look on ERIC and this was the first thing that popped up. I'm not on campus so I can't pull the article, but, uh...yeah, it ain't lookin' good for you here, friend. (For people who aren't academics, the phrase "positive relationship" in the abstract refers to a positive statistical relationship--as in, more premarital sex, more divorce--being potentially unfounded.)

That's another thing, I suppose - sex is part of a healthy relationship, and if you cannot have a good sex life, the marriage will often struggle severely.

Stability is also good.  Multiple partners before hand doesn't help with stability.  Since you can't be 100% that you'll actually marry a given individual, it's recommended that you just wait.  Edit:  THis is mostly because it has much more psychological significance than other dating things.

"It's recommended"? Really? By whom? Again: certified headshrinkers only, please, not your religious leader. You know--people who have the intellectual standing to make such claims and the experimental study to back it up.

See, here's the thing. In the real world, people recognize that a critical part of a decent relationship is compatibility in bed. Wait to marry someone who may not be that person? Yeah, no. We're meatbags. We, to put it tersely, fuck. Fucking is very, very important to most people. Tying yourself to somebody with whom it isn't fun to fuck? Yeah, it might work out okay (if you check your dick at the door), but it's not a really bright idea, sharpskate.

[Zangi]

Well, when ulterior interests are added to scientific study... you can't help but think 'statistics' will be skewed one way or the other.

Something like premarital sex, I believe would be skewed by both religious influence and the other side.  Not to mention, one must remember that humans are fickle and varied at whatever floats the boats.
One partner could prefer no premarital sex while the other wants it, but gets denied.  Then they get disappointed or whatever.
Or both can be all for premarital, but after getting married finds that its just the same or something of the likes.
And hey, there is also people lying about their matrimonial sex life when asked, making it sound better or worse then it actually is.


@Blacken, lets stop being combative shall we... ?  I don't want to close this topic....

[Blacken]

Well, when ulterior interests are added to scientific study... you can't help but think 'statistics' will be skewed one way or the other.

Science is experimentally repeatable has verifiable results. You can do an experiment multiple times to check your answers, and you can compare your results to others'.

Father O'Malley telling the little boys and girls to keep it in their pants lacks verifiable results and has no place in a reasoned argument.

@Blacken, lets stop being combative shall we... ?  I don't want to close this topic....

That isn't combative. If he cannot come up with a credible source, he has no argument. The burden of proof is on him for making the claim. I called him on it. We can see if there is lead in his proverbial pencil.

EDIT: wording

[KaelGotDwarves]

"You can lead a horse to water..."

There exist multiple peer-review studies showing that pre-marital sex doesn't cause marital problems. In fact, as many studies show, it's the exact opposite. Groups which fanatically argue abstinence until marriage face larger numbers, percentage-wise, of divorce.

@Zangi: you started a discussion about both politics and religion on the internet. Whatever made you think it would go over well? 

[Blacken]

"You can lead a horse to water..."

There exist multiple peer-review studies showing that pre-marital sex doesn't cause marital problems. In fact, as many studies show, it's the exact opposite. Groups which fanatically argue abstinence until marriage face larger numbers, percentage-wise, of divorce.

Ding ding ding. If this continues I'll hit up EBSCO or something for citations.

[KaelGotDwarves]

Also, having done more research, Catholic marital breakage rates are actually higher than previously stated, because many Catholics choose to have marriages "annulled" rather than listed as divorced, as the Catholic Church officially takes a hardline against divorce. So those weren't marked on the divorce rate statistics.

EDIT: Before anyone gets defensive, realize I'm not attacking anyone's faith. These studies are overall trends, and you may or may not personally fall in them. Divorce rates are currently between 40-50% of all marriages in the US, and I wouldn't wish that on anyone. In fact, I hope you take a good look at the end of that article to see what others do wrong.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Dallas therapist and Southwestern Seminary graduate Dr. Roy Austin believes that some more mainline Christians with an active faith might very well have a better chance at lifelong marriages than some people who follow fundamentalist theology. "I'm not supporting those statistics," he said, referring to the Barna study. But what Dr. Austin calls "magical thinking" is often a factor among evangelical and fundamentalist couples he counsels, he said, and that leaves them less prepared for the rigors of marriage. "The atheist doesn't believe in God and so doesn't depend on God to save or fix a marriage. It's just 'the two of us,' and that takes the magic aspect out of it," he said.

At the same time, his 25 years of counseling shows that religious people can have an advantage in marriage. "If religion is not used as a magic pill but as a source of spiritual and moral strength and guidance, then it can be a major contributing factor to preserving marriage," he said.

But many fundamentalist or evangelical couples base their marriages on "very irrational and unrealistic principles," he said. "They say, 'Put God first in your marriage' whatever that means to them 'be faithful in church, be a good Christian, pray a lot, attend church, and God will work everything out for you.' Then they find out that's a lot of hogwash." He's also seen problems when some fundamentalist men, in leading the household, become "cruel dictators" who "expect their wives to become servants." Gary Thomas, author of Sacred Marriage and director of the Center for Evangelical Spirituality in Bellingham, Wash., believes that men should head the family, but that means they ought to be servant-leaders. "I think in many ways Christian marriage is harder," he said. "We're expected to forgive. We're expected to give of ourselves. Paul tells husbands that they ought to have the mind of a martyr." A possible problem he sees is what he calls "the myth of the evangelical husband." "This is a husband who is expected to make enough money that his wife can stay home, who goes to Promise Keepers and dates his wife every week and dates his kids every week and takes his kids out every month to talk about abstinence and men get tired," Mr. Thomas said.

But that's no excuse for divorce. Christians should use marriage to seek "holiness, not happiness," he said. Mr. Thomas believes that the Christian church contributes to divorce by being too tolerant. "We have bent over backwards not to be judgmental," he said. That's a mistake, in Mr. Thomas' opinion. He believes that Christians need to think of their marriage as a chance to serve Christ. "A Christian who gets divorced puts their happiness before their devotion to Christ."

I'm merely stating the statistics related to the claim above that "pre-marital sex leads to higher rates of large marital problems" which I am sure is false, and if you believe the census data, is false.

I'm a sociology undergrad bro, you cannot just make statements like that without fact checking

[LegoLord]

Many questions by many people, some asking the same thing.

School.  Public.  Sex ed.  Teacher.  That's where I heard it.  Fair enough?

Edit:  Also, not all Christians are abstinent.  In fact, like people in general in the US, the majority aren't.  The two aren't mutually inclusive.  Conclusions about the relation of the prior to divorce can't prove that the latter is also linked to divorce.

[Jude]

Religion can make people tend not to get divorced; I'm a Mennonite and lots of Mennonites get married young...I'm 22, just graduated college and a lot of people in my class got married this summer; same with every class. There are pretty few divorces in the Mennonite population, certainly a lot less than the general population. While I think it's dumb for people to jump into getting married that young (and most of the ones that get married aren't having sex before, although there's a significant number of exceptions) I can't argue with the fact that very few get divorced.

The reason is that if you believe divorce is not only a bad experience, but is also damaging to the community (and Mennonites usually define sin in how it hurts other people, not how it pisses off God) then that's a strong incentive to try and work out any conflicts you have, AND the rest of the community is there to encourage you to stay married and help you out if you need it. Plus, there's that one lab where they can accurately predict if a marriage will end in divorce or not just by watching the couple argue for fifteen minutes, based on how they communicate with each other. All the Mennonite couples I know getting married have the good communication styles.

On the other hand, Catholics have a way higher divorce rate and they have the same issue of "You can't bang until you get married" so people get married young just so they can bone. I think the fact that Catholics are a way bigger population and a less tight-knit community has something to do with it; also that Catholic dogma is way more black-and-white on sin, portraying it as you just dont' do it because God said so, instead of portraying things as bad in terms of how they hurt other people. I don't think people really buy the God Said So thing.

[LegoLord]

Plus a lot of Christians have misconceptions about Christianity (maybe they should be a separate religion from the ones that don't have those).  There's evidence of that in all those people who go into a rage over the topic of homosexuality, but will then eat a cheeseburger or shrimp (both of which, according to their section of the bible, are equal offenses to homosexuality.  I personally think the guy who wrote that was a nut job rather than a legitimate prophet).