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[Nadaka]

Well then the Civil war doesn't count either.

Since a Civil war cannot really be official

*shrugs* That is sort of different I suppose since we wern't fighting a foriegn nation, plus wasn't the civil war before we had an actual Congress?

The Confederacy was a different nation. The confederate states executed their legal right to cede, and for legitimate reasons. But they were stills still "America". The union did officially declare war.

[Neonivek]

Wait wait wait... but that would make the North the villains of the Civil war officially. (though I wonder if it means it wasn't a civil war)

[Realmfighter]

Wait wait wait... but that would make the North the villains of the Civil war officially. (though I wonder if it means it wasn't a civil war)

What do you mean, Villains?

[Akigagak]

They started it.

[Aqizzar]

No.  The civil war was a long time after we had a congress.

Hmm well I can't remember if Congress had the power to declare war from the beginning or if it was gained at a later date anyway.

What you're think of is the repeal of the Gulf of Tonkin declaration.  By 1971 Congress (or at least congressional pollsters) were pretty sure that Lyndon Johnson had escalated our presence in Vietnam without any real justification or notice.  A little later they passed the War Powers Resolution, which requires the President to tell Congress if he's deployed any troops somewhere, and without their explicit voting approval troops can't stay deployed for more than three months.

Now, what would happen if a President just kept rotating deployments every couple months, or just didn't tell anyone about a deployment until CNN breaks it?  Essentially, the one and only thing that Congress could ever do to a President, hold an impeachment.  And thanks to Gingrich dropping the nuclear bomb on Clinton, the justification for impeachment has effectively been narrowed to "marital infidelity and absolutely nothing else".  Sleep tight.

[Neonivek]

I think we all know that it is impossibe to Impeach a president at this point.

Though there is quite a few Government activities that REALLY say that the USA really needs to work on their government... That and people need to seriously work on their collective responsibility and ability to analyse propaganda.

[Realmfighter]

They started it.

So, if a country sponsors terrorists who attack Canada yelling " Country is awesome!" and we retaliated, we would be the villains?

There is NEVER anything that black and white.

[Jude]

Iran has 12 million soldiers? Lmao. That's like 1/3 or 1/4 of their population.

Which would make sense if they count all men between 18 and 60 as being in the army, which wouldn't surprise me.

[Neonivek]

Uhhh RealmFighter

That country that sponsored Terrorists who attack Canada... WAS the United States.

[Cthulhu]

Well then the Civil war doesn't count either.

Since a Civil war cannot really be official

*shrugs* That is sort of different I suppose since we wern't fighting a foriegn nation, plus wasn't the civil war before we had an actual Congress?

The Confederacy was a different nation. The confederate states executed their legal right to cede, and for legitimate reasons. But they were stills still "America". The union did officially declare war.

The legal right thing is the problem, because as I remember there was no explicit allowance for secession in the Constitution.  Therefore they did not have a legal right to secede, they were still America, and since the Confederacy was the original aggressor, the South would be the villains.

That term is irrelevant though, because there's no good and bad, just us and them.

[Aqizzar]

They started it.

So, if a country sponsors terrorists who attack Canada yelling " Country is awesome!" and we retaliated, we would be the villains?

There is NEVER anything that black and white.

I'm pretty sure he was joking around.  He's also completely and utterly of course, which he probably knows.

Iran has 12 million soldiers? Lmao. That's like 1/3 or 1/4 of their population.

Which would make sense if they count all men between 18 and 60 as being in the army, which wouldn't surprise me.

Yeah, that's the impression that I got.  Of course, Iran was another of those countries that combined Middle-Eastern nationalism with a love of bureaucratic employment.  That's still a wild overstatement though.

[Realmfighter]

I'm pretty sure he was joking around.  He's also completely and utterly of course, which he probably knows.

What?

[Nadaka]

Wait wait wait... but that would make the North the villains of the Civil war officially. (though I wonder if it means it wasn't a civil war)

Its complex, more complex than you get high school history. Its pretty safe to say, neither side was innocent, but it was the southerners (both black and white) that were hit the hardest.

[Aqizzar]

I'm pretty sure he was joking around.  He's also completely and utterly wrong of course, which he probably knows.

Oops.

The legal right thing is the problem, because as I remember there was no explicit allowance for secession in the Constitution.  Therefore they did not have a legal right to secede, they were still America, and since the Confederacy was the original aggressor, the South would be the villains.

That term is irrelevant though, because there's no good and bad, just us and them.

It's true that there was no clause allowing for secession in the Constitution, or by the Air Bud rule, also no clause against it.  Like most matters of statecraft, what ultimately proved to be "right" and "wrong" was more a matter of what one side could make stick over the other than any specific legal definition.

[Neonivek]

For the most part in terms of who was more guilty I'd personally would think it was the North.

This is of course if you accept the not as accepted belief that the North's stance on Slavery was an end war justification and even if you took it into account the effect on slavery was almost non-existant after the war anyhow.

Though Id have to research it a bit more. It is hard to get into because the USA is INLOVE with revisionist history. I know all countries are to a certain extent though. The USA's attempts are just a bit more transparent and have a paper trail. It takes quite a bit of research to get accurate history.

Mind you I realise that all history is, is an interpretation... but still

Ps. I have an eternal loathing for altered history!