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Author Topic: Building a military FAST - HOW?  (Read 2072 times)

Skorpion

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Building a military FAST - HOW?
« on: November 28, 2009, 01:00:18 pm »

So. My current fort is salvaged from a succession game, and in dwarf heaven. There is, however, one major problem. Goblins. BOW goblins.

They're killing off my military faster than I can train up replacements from migrants. I don't have much iron, steel production is too slow, and copper is punched clean through by the bolts and arrows. Bronze is a nonissue, I don't have any tin.

Is there anything I can do to stop them being so lethal, or train dwarves faster?
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The *large serrated steel disk* strikes the Raven in the head, tearing apart the muscle, shattering the skull, and tearing apart the brain!
A tendon in the skull has been torn!
The Raven has been knocked unconcious!

Elves do it in trees. Humans do it in wooden structures. Dwarves? Dwarves do it underground. With magma.

nil

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Re: Building a military FAST - HOW?
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2009, 01:10:21 pm »

Before you give your melee troops weapons, train them up high in wrestling.  This isn't always the best strategy, but if you're getting dominated by ranged troops it is--a legendary wrestler armed even with a simple weapon they have no skill in will do very well against archers due to their ability to dodge projectiles.  Also, its easy to train wrestlers without metal reserves.

Do not send unarmed wrestlers out there, though, they'll just get pin-cushioned mid-strangle.

Also, fortifications.

Sliver Barb

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Re: Building a military FAST - HOW?
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2009, 01:34:41 pm »

Unless you're playing with 'no trap' rules, just build traps. Traps > all.

If you're playing a 300-style game, I'll second the wrestling recommendation.
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Stargrasper

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Re: Building a military FAST - HOW?
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2009, 01:42:32 pm »

If you're REALLY in a pinch, don't forget you can always draft your miners/woodcutters/legendary bookkeepers.  Their stats ought to be strong enough to do some work on the battlefield.

You may also consider a more defensive approach.  Line the front gate with traps and arrow towers so that and your soldiers shouldn't ever actually have to come into direct contact with the enemy.  Or just lock all the gates and wait out the siege.  Non-human sieges tend to go away after something like a season, I've heard.  Human sieges apparently wait longer.
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dragon0421

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Re: Building a military FAST - HOW?
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2009, 01:47:41 pm »

Remember that you can melt down the goblinite you find from your kills and turn it into armor/weapons. Stop wasting it all on ammo; that should come from bones if you don't have many veins.
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Kanddak

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Re: Building a military FAST - HOW?
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2009, 03:09:26 pm »

Don't get tunnel vision about your metal supplies, you could put your guys in masterwork steel armor and they'd still be getting hit by arrows that mangle their heart and both lungs and take out both eyes. Ranged weapons are just nasty.

You need to build some static defenses. Weapon traps are the obvious choice although I normally play without them.
My favorite trap these days is a 10-level-deep pit with retracting bridges over it. I've found that about 30 tiles long (i.e. 3 maximum-length bridges) is a good length to get a couple whole siege squads to stand on it at once.

If you're really playing "no traps at all" rules and insist on using your soldiers, then:
1. Follow previous posters' recommendations of making sure to train all soldiers to legendary wrestlers before issuing weapons.
2. Prepare the battlefield to favor melee troops over archers, by building a long hallway like this:
Code: [Select]
#################
#   #   #   #   #
  #   #   #   #
#   #   #   #   #
  #   #   #   #
#   #   #   #   #
#################
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Hydrodynamics Education - read this before being confused about fluid behaviors

The wiki is notoriously inaccurate on subjects at the cutting edge, frequently reflecting passing memes, folklore, or the word on the street instead of true dwarven science.

Funk

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Re: Building a military FAST - HOW?
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2009, 04:07:48 pm »

try to build some Fortifications/walls are out in the open to block there shots.
note that trees can be used but will take a few years to grow.
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Agree, plus that's about the LAST thing *I* want to see from this kind of game - author spending valuable development time on useless graphics.

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Skorpion

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Re: Building a military FAST - HOW?
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2009, 04:27:46 pm »

Weapon traps are out; metalworking is scarce.
For iron, I'm smelting all the goblinite I can, but it's just happening so goddamn slowly. And I don't have a legendary armourer.

Would a zig-zagging corridor work?
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The *large serrated steel disk* strikes the Raven in the head, tearing apart the muscle, shattering the skull, and tearing apart the brain!
A tendon in the skull has been torn!
The Raven has been knocked unconcious!

Elves do it in trees. Humans do it in wooden structures. Dwarves? Dwarves do it underground. With magma.

Derakon

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Re: Building a military FAST - HOW?
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2009, 04:54:32 pm »

Kanddak: a better corridor design would look like this:
Code: [Select]
###########
#.#.#.#.#.#
.#.#.#.#.#.
.#.#.#.#.#.
#.#.#.#.#.#
.#.#.#.#.#.
.#.#.#.#.#.
#.#.#.#.#.#
###########
This design prevents line-of-sight from more than two tiles away.

Of course, given the tendency of bolts to deviate a bit from their intended flight path, it doesn't make a huge difference. Just so long as there's a wall to block the bolt, instead of the body of one of your dwarves.

Skorpion: if you're short on armor, concentrate on shields first, then torso, then head. Shields add the all-important block chance (to go with the dodge chance that wrestling gives you), and from then on it's just a matter of protecting the parts of the dwarf that matter most.
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Skorpion

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Re: Building a military FAST - HOW?
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2009, 10:54:05 pm »

Okay, what blocks line-of-sight without blocking wagon access?
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The *large serrated steel disk* strikes the Raven in the head, tearing apart the muscle, shattering the skull, and tearing apart the brain!
A tendon in the skull has been torn!
The Raven has been knocked unconcious!

Elves do it in trees. Humans do it in wooden structures. Dwarves? Dwarves do it underground. With magma.

nil

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Re: Building a military FAST - HOW?
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2009, 11:13:16 pm »

Okay, what blocks line-of-sight without blocking wagon access?
Walls surrounded by ramps.  However, then you have to deal with enemies climbing on top.  You could fix this by hanging walls off the ceiling, something like:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
where / and \  are ramps and = are walls (it's a side view/cross-section).  In terms of "effectively killing goblins" it would be more trouble than it's worth but it might be cool anyways.

Skorpion

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Re: Building a military FAST - HOW?
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2009, 01:14:38 am »

Too much effort. I'm really looking to contain it on one Z-level.
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The *large serrated steel disk* strikes the Raven in the head, tearing apart the muscle, shattering the skull, and tearing apart the brain!
A tendon in the skull has been torn!
The Raven has been knocked unconcious!

Elves do it in trees. Humans do it in wooden structures. Dwarves? Dwarves do it underground. With magma.

GoldenH

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Re: Building a military FAST - HOW?
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2009, 03:01:51 am »

you could build lots of bridges, then just lower the bridges when the caravan is due and they'll go over them. Of course, then building destroyers will plow right through them.  It's probably best to just not worry about bowgoblins. Sufficiently trained dwarfs will dodge everything anyway.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Building a military FAST - HOW?
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2009, 03:58:51 am »

Good grief, just build a ballista and a long hallway.  Skewer a couple and the rest will flee.
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Grendus

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Re: Building a military FAST - HOW?
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2009, 01:01:32 pm »

You want to train wrestlers with shields. There are five ways to protect against bowgobs: walls, fortifications, dodging, shields, and armor. That's the preferred order. You're looking at it backwards, armor is the last line of defense. Much better to stop the bolt with a wall or to dodge or block it than to try to absorb it, even masterwork steel can be punctured by an elite bowgob's iron arrow if the recruit wearing it takes a bolt to the face.

A few other things.

1: Don't worry so much about weapon grade if you can train soldiers. I've had legendary hammerdwarves kill Ogres (modded civ, larger than humans in iron plate armor) with base quality silver training weapons without taking a scratch. Champions are the shit, they can do things normal dwarves could never dream of. On the flipside, if you're using untrained recruits, high quality weapons can let them fight as though they're much more skilled than they are. It's always a balance.

2: Don't use marksdwarves. They're expensive to train up and odds are you don't have the metal to support a sustained marksdwarf defense. On top of that, if they take a bolt to the face you're out 600 successful shots, which takes more than a squad of goblins to refill (much more, even legendaries miss). You'll be looking at entire siege to train up a single legendary marksdwarf. Melee dwarves are much more powerful for the cost. However, a skilled bowyer or weaponsmith can make up for this, if you have excess bones raw marksdwarves with exceptional crossbows make a decent last line of defense.

3: Don't skimp on the crosstraining if you can afford it. Legendary wrestling adds a lot to any soldier. The additional dodge plus the massive experience gains giving them high stats makes them even more formidable. Letting them train with shields is even better, wrestlers often block punches, shield bashes, and grabs and trains up their shield user skill. It slows wrestling gain slightly, but it's a VERY good trade since the total avoidance gain is greater.
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A quick guide to surviving your first few days in CataclysmDDA:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=121194.msg4796325;topicseen#msg4796325
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