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Author Topic: Playing D&D in your dwarf fort?  (Read 5852 times)

Derakon

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Re: Playing D&D in your dwarf fort?
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2009, 11:27:01 pm »

You could use DF to create maps for paper and pencil RPGs...but I don't think most forts that players make to actually play DF would work all that well as maps for other games.The problem largely is that what makes a good or interesting design for a functional fortress does not necessarily make a good or interesting design for a group of adventurers to explore.

What you might do is find one of those threads where people are trading a save game around and making a bunch of dungeons for adventurers to explore. Those should work better as sources of inspiration.
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Hyndis

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Re: Playing D&D in your dwarf fort?
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2009, 12:24:32 am »

Nice idea, I think I heard someone suggest it with Boatmurdered once.

Would it be too sadistic to make the players get strange moods while exploring the forts? :D

I've actually done that. Didn't use the exact map of Boatmurdered, but the same idea. Same story and such. Though I also made use of HPS by implying that the dwarves had slowly gone mad while digging for the adamantine, eventually causing the entire fortress to collapse in an orgy of insanity, murderous tantrums, and miasma.

The same corrupting influence also caused those dwarven corpses to reanimate, so the entire place was packed full of horrific scenes of ancient violence, undead dwarves, insane traps, illogically placed levers, and goblins. Goblins had settled in the shallower portions of the fort and were attempting to reclaim it.



A DF makes for an outstanding dungeon crawl. All of those random map generators are worthless, as its just a random map generator. Fine for a natural cave, but not for ruins. Rooms and corridors need to serve a purpose. Dwarven fortresses do have a purpose. There are identifiable rooms, furniture that makes sense, plumbing and mechanical accessways, and so forth.

Take a bustling dwarven fortress. Abandon it, preferably due to some horrible disaster. Age it a few hundred years. Wood decays, water can flood portions of it, some tunnels may collapse. Just do this to the map as you see fit, taking dramatic license to make it more awesome.


On a related note, the Deep Roads in Dragon Ages Origins are VERY dorfy.  :D

Ancient abandoned tunnels and fortresses, overwhelmed by the hordes and rotted with age. Magma and traps everywhere, along with ancient lost artifacts and other special surprises. Also, corruption and madness turning former friends into foes.
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Pantheon

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Re: Playing D&D in your dwarf fort?
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2009, 08:03:31 am »

You could use DF to create maps for paper and pencil RPGs...but I don't think most forts that players make to actually play DF would work all that well as maps for other games.The problem largely is that what makes a good or interesting design for a functional fortress does not necessarily make a good or interesting design for a group of adventurers to explore.

What you might do is find one of those threads where people are trading a save game around and making a bunch of dungeons for adventurers to explore. Those should work better as sources of inspiration.

Yeah you got a point. I was thinking along the lines of starting a fortress for the sole reason of using it as an adventure location later on. If my group kicks off i'll post the results here =)
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Blackburn

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Re: Playing D&D in your dwarf fort?
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2009, 01:14:52 pm »

Start fortress.

Make it huge.

Engineer horrible catastrophe.

After enough dwarves die, abandon.

Do what the above person said and age it a hundred years or so.

Use that for D&D.

Wander down ancient halls filled with faded engravings of dwarves beating dwarves to death while on fire!

Discover the kitten butcher house!

Loot the nobles' bedrooms!

FIGHT HFS!

Wander into a room full of stone-fall traps!

ROCKS FALL, EVERYONE DIES!
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Default Settings

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Re: Playing D&D in your dwarf fort?
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2009, 06:28:54 pm »

Why didn't I post a thread about this? My D&D group also decided to look at a fortress once, here are the relevant bits.

The group was trying to sneak away from a battlefield where their king's army had been hopelessly overwhelmed. Under a heavy fog of magic origins they come across an old dwarven road and decide to follow it to find a hiding place before the fog lifts.

I had the entire fortress exported, the colors inverted and printed out in greyscale. For background, the fortress had been overrun and plundered by goblins many years ago, but the most treasured artifact was still hidden at the very bottom, at the shore of an artificial underground lake. For enemies, the castle was largely empty beside some nasty critters, a large cave spider in the catacombs, a goblin adventure party looking for treasure, drakes nesting at the upmost spire and the last, mad survivor of a dwarven reclaiming party, hiding away in the main lever room, pulling random levers following his whims.

One out of the three players had played dwarven fortress before, the other two where quite confused since the dungeon didn't follow common RPG logic. Turns out this was difficult for me as dungeon master, too, since the player tended to spend way to much time pondering oddities that any Dwarf Fortress player would be familiar with:

* The road they followed was partially engraved. They found images of dwarves talking to elves, cheese, dwarves killing elves, dwarves killing goblins and of a legendary table. The players tried to make sense of it but gave quickly up since all the pictures didn't add up to a story. But they rightfully deduced that there were crazy dwarves ahead.

*The rogue was scouting ahead and found a small wooden hut in the woods, Looking like this:
Code: [Select]
#######
#^^^^^#
#C^^^^|
#^^^^^#
#######
"C" is a simply stone coffer, the traps are cage traps. I originally build this just for the heck of it as a painfully obvious idiot trap, but I actually managed to trap a tiger and two goblins with this. After having a narrowly dodged cage dropped on him, the rogue looked under the roof of the hut and was menaced by the trap mechanisms, but managed to disable them and retrieve the valuable treasure in the coffer: A single goblin bone bolt. I actually intended the worthless bolt to show the players that they were baited in the trap, but for some reason they had the idea that the bolt was an important plot item and held on to it dearly. Because, hey, there must be a reason why it was protected by so many traps, right?

* After watching the walls for a while, although they didn't like all the many arrow slits they crossed the moat and went through the open door to enter the fortresses' outside courtyard. They were lucky to do that instead of entering by the small opening in the mountainside since they managed to avoid the trap corridor this way.

* The entire courtyard and half the fortress was cluttered with fine silk stockings, narrow loincloths and other clothing items. The group was quite confounded by this and came up with various theories like dwarves being teleported out of their clothes, dwarves being eaten out of their clothes, spontaneous combustion and so on. But in the end the players arrived at the right conclusion: Dwarves are slobs.

* The group entered the fortress by the great drawing bridge, walked around a corner and suddenly in the same moment it gets a bit darker, a loud BANG reverberating through the tunnels is heard and a gust of wind felt. Was it an explosion inside the mountain? Somebody casting dark magic over them? A teleportation effect? A ghost passing by them? They never figured out that the mad dwarf in the tower just happened to pull the drawbridge's lever and that they were effectively trapped.

* Of course the fortress includes a grand statue garden in a lavishly engraved hall. In D&D statues usually can be either things: A trap that does something like shooting fire from its eyes, or a golem that just hasn't moved.. YET. So coming across a hall with 30+ statues made the group advance very, very, cautiously. Only after some hiding behind shields, poking, pushing, and finally breaking one the players believed the statues to be harmless.
But such a hall has to have some meaning, right? And there's a well in the northern corner! Who would need a common well in a fine hall such as this?

* The rogue was winched down the well and discovered that there was a passage to a stairway a bit below, connecting to three other well shafts. In the context of Dwarf Fortress, the stairwell was only an auxiliary construction left over from digging the shafts that was walled off from the rest of the fort to keep invaders from using it. But for the players it was a secret passage, possibly leading to hidden treasure! Luckily they decided to climb upstairs and leave at a well near the treasure chambers, otherwise they would have been sorely disappointed.

* They left the fortress at an exit leading to a high plateau devoid of any trees to find a narrow line of piles of boulders, right next to several windmills. What could this mean, was it a fortification, was something buried below it? Of course, from their vantage point the adventurers could not see the platform high up the tower where the catapults are stationed. But by this time the players had already learned that a dwarf fortress is a place where not everything makes sense, shrugged, and simply went on with their adventure.

The group never managed to find the treasure since a change of schedule and players lead to starting an entirely new campaign. But I am still keeping the floor plans, they may come back to reclaim what is theirs.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 04:41:30 am by Default Settings »
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Blackburn

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Re: Playing D&D in your dwarf fort?
« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2009, 07:22:20 pm »

DF defies RPG logic?

No, DF defies logic in general.


If I ever need to write a fantasy story about dwarves, I'm building fortresses for inspiration.

I'm sure loads of people would love to read about a legendary carp leather thong that menaced with spikes of steel.
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stolensteel

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Re: Playing D&D in your dwarf fort?
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2009, 09:25:36 pm »

Why didn't I post a thread about this? My D&D group also decided to look at a fortress once, here are the relevant bits.

~snip~

Wow. I'm not DM'ing right now, but I want to start a game with my group (who does play DF) just so in the middle of it I can surprise them all with an actual fortress. That is an amazing story, and I want to see how my group would take it.

Amazing sir. Just, amazing.
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Hyndis

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Re: Playing D&D in your dwarf fort?
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2009, 11:09:17 pm »

Problem is, they're meta-gaming.  ;D

In game design, everything has a purpose. Nothing is just for decoration. This is because making something takes time and effort, and spending that time and effort for something that has no purpose is simply not done.

Real life is not like this. A dwarven fortress is much like a real life settlement (except more drunk, insane, and/or burning). There are decorations just for the sake of there being decorations.

I also loved that chest containing a single worthless item guarded by a massive field of traps.

I have a similar sort of trap that I love using:



In a vast underground cavern there is a lake of bone. The cavern is deep, but the lower half of it is just filled with bones of all types and species. On the far side of the cavern, across the lake of bone, is a pile of glittering treasure.

A trap, right?

Of course!

Should anyone step foot on the bone, an army of invulnerable bone golems will take form from the gigantic pile of bones. Any damage done to them is instantly healed by replacing damaged parts with new parts. They cannot be killed. Any player attempting to fight one will lose.

However, the golems cannot leave the bone pile. Thus, by simply ignoring the treasure the adventurers are perfectly safe. If they persist on going after the treasure their own items will join the pile of treasure, and their own bones will be added to the lake of bone.

This is much like the trap you made. This one offers actual treasure, but an unbeatable opponent, and the more the adventurers persist the more likely they will all end up dead. The only way to survive the trap is to just ignore the trap.
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Derakon

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Re: Playing D&D in your dwarf fort?
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2009, 11:41:36 pm »

Hyndis: tricky, and I like it from a design point of view. However, there's a not-uncommon class of player that assumes that everything that they can see, they should be able to reach/fight/acquire. Players have come to accept "invincible puzzle bosses", but "unreachable treasure" is a different matter. I strongly suspect that what will happen if you include that trap in your game is that the players will devote the rest of the session to banging their heads against it ("I pour magma on the bones!" "The magma disappears down an unseen drain." "I try to levitate across the lake!" "Okay, the bones form into a giant serpent and block your path." "Hmm...can we dig down from above on top of the treasure pile? Stone to mud!") and as you have to come up with increasingly complex reasons why their increasingly-creative (and yet still plausible!) attempts don't work, they'll get more annoyed with you.

I'm not saying it can't be done...but it'd take more than just what you describe here.
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Re: Playing D&D in your dwarf fort?
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2009, 04:05:19 am »

Problem is, they're meta-gaming.  ;D
Most RPG groups seem to end up like this. As far as I can tell all official D&D adventures are about as complicated as an average episode of Xena, Hercules or whatever's a current light-hearted afternoon TV series, and to safe time EVERYTHING in it is of significance. Of course that can be fun, but it gets boring.

A different group I play with has the tradition that the game masters try to outdo each other by coming up with always more cunningly designed traps and intrigues. This is where metagaming the game masters psyche turns into a matter of survival. And terribly entertaining.
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warhammer651

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Re: Playing D&D in your dwarf fort?
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2009, 08:47:50 am »

I remember my DM doing this one time. He took a medium sized fort and used it as a setting for a low level adventure (we were lvl 5..... I think).

The hook was something about a dwarf asking us to retrieve something that he made and left behind after a kobold siege wrecked the place.

this dungeon quickly became akin to the tomb of horrors for us. our DM had decided to play the Kobolds as clever but weak creatures who are VERY good ambushers. ambushers that had figured out how to work all the traps in the fortress.

Upon entering the remains of the fort, we came across a room full of discarded clothing and possesions. instead of wondering "Frank, why is there a stockpile of dwarven clothing here?", we just looted anything that looked the least bit shiny.

Then the FUN starts. as we walk down a corridor, our cleric gets struck with two arrows, booth critical hits, and knocked unconscious. The rogue (me) spins 'round, and dives prone, right as one of the Koboldspulled a lever for a spike trap. I survive, our fighter survives, the mage? not so much. we run into a nearby room, a dining hall if i remember right, and take cover behind the tables and chairs. the next few rounds are essentially both sides taking potshots at one another. eventually we kill one of them, the other flees, and the cleric wakes up and starts healing.

Crap like this keeps occurring as we head through the fortress. We started taking turns entering rooms and hallways so that we don't ware out one player's luck. Eventually we come to a massive underground lake. after looking around the room we find a lever to lower a bridge. as we are walking across the bridge (having to take continuous balance checks as we do. blasted thing is nearly rotted away) i slip into the pond where I get eaten alive by zombie carp. the rest of the team find out that the kobold have trained these things.

last time we went there we were level 15. we still got our asses kicked by these oversized lizards.
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zecro

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Re: Playing D&D in your dwarf fort?
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2009, 02:27:28 am »

@Default Settings

I'm not sure what it would be in not-4e, but a lot of Dorf Fort logic could probably be narrated via Insight (sense motive?), history, and dungeoneering checks. And the part where they didn't notice the drawbridge closing sounds like a rather poor perception check (or just bad acoustic sense, which I suppose makes sense if they are in a mine).

Most forts would make pretty poor dungeons, just because adventuring and running a fortress require different layouts, but it would probably be possible to create DF-inspired adventures -- engravings, stockpiles of (useless) stuff, traps, bridges, dwarven engineering, leaking doors, magma that has cooled to obsidian...
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Re: Playing D&D in your dwarf fort?
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2009, 03:12:16 am »

...a lot of Dorf Fort logic could probably be narrated via Insight (sense motive?), history, and dungeoneering checks. And the part where they didn't notice the drawbridge closing sounds like a rather poor perception check.
You are completely right and I could have done this. It probably was bad game mastering on my part, but instead of explaining their surroundings through their character's knowledge I had the players come up with explanations of what they observed.
It was just to entertaining that way.  ;D
Quote
Most forts would make pretty poor dungeons, just because adventuring and running a fortress require different layouts.
Sure, but it also requires a different exploration strategy and thus is a (maybe laborious) way of creating a different dungeon experience.
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Hyndis

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Re: Playing D&D in your dwarf fort?
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2009, 11:19:22 am »

Hyndis: tricky, and I like it from a design point of view. However, there's a not-uncommon class of player that assumes that everything that they can see, they should be able to reach/fight/acquire. Players have come to accept "invincible puzzle bosses", but "unreachable treasure" is a different matter. I strongly suspect that what will happen if you include that trap in your game is that the players will devote the rest of the session to banging their heads against it ("I pour magma on the bones!" "The magma disappears down an unseen drain." "I try to levitate across the lake!" "Okay, the bones form into a giant serpent and block your path." "Hmm...can we dig down from above on top of the treasure pile? Stone to mud!") and as you have to come up with increasingly complex reasons why their increasingly-creative (and yet still plausible!) attempts don't work, they'll get more annoyed with you.

I'm not saying it can't be done...but it'd take more than just what you describe here.


Its certainly possible to defeat such a thing, but it would be a huge undertaking, and require being very clever to do this. Its basically an epic level boss that just can't move.

Just because the dragon is there does not mean you need to fight the dragon.

Amusingly, Dragon Age is getting the same sort of complaint. Relatively early on in the game you encounter a massively powerful dragon.

However, the dragon is an entirely optional encounter. Just because there is a dragon does not mean you need to fight the dragon!  ;D

The dragon will basically instagib the entire party if you go after the dragon right away. You need to come back later. Much later. When you're level 15+ to have any chance of defeating it.
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