Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Neruz]

The Irish have proved it is entirely possible to live your entire life eating little more than salted boiled potatoes and goats milk.


This does not mean it is a good idea.



We also don't actually know the full story on how and why our bodies work the way they do. There may be other reasons to eat meat that we don't know of; the simple fact is, we do not know why we need the diet we do. We've got a sort of general idea, and picked out a few important proteins, but we're still a long way from a complete understanding.

And tell me; do you really want to start messing around with something you do not understand?

[G-Flex]

That's why I consider veganism an experimental sort of diet.

I mention veganism because vegetarianism is even LESS problematic; a lot of the stuff you get from meat but not plants, you can still get trivially from eggs and dairy and such.


I'm aware we don't know absolutely everything about nutrition, and that's why I still consider veganism to be a somewhat experimental thing. However, we do know quite a bit about it, especially compared to what we used to, and as far as I can tell and have been able to find out, it can work and can be healthy.

The kind of uncertainty you're bringing up is one reason I probably would never become a vegan myself, but that's part of the reason why I respect them in the first place, as long as they understand that risk, as much as it may exist.

In fact, I think that's one reason why it's good to have vegetarians/vegans around. There's essentially no better way to study whether or not it is healthy, and it's getting popular enough now where, 20 years from now, we're likely to have enough case data to draw stronger conclusions, if not absolute ones.

Really, you can say "do you want to mess with something you don't understand?" but that you can apply to any seriously dietary change, and you can only push the goalposts back so far before saying "yeah, go ahead and try it". We know enough about nutrition now to know that it isn't exactly going to kill you, provided you know what you're doing, will probably be reasonably healthy, and like I said, enough people are doing it that by the time they're old, we'll likely have our answers.

After all, when it comes to complicated stuff like this, at some point you have to bite the bullet and experiment in order to get the data you need.

[Neruz]

a lot of the stuff you get from meat but not plants, you can still get trivially from eggs and dairy and such.

We think.

[Jreengus]

I'm aware we don't know absolutely everything about nutrition, and that's why I still consider veganism to be a somewhat experimental thing. However, we do know quite a bit about it, especially compared to what we used to, and as far as I can tell and have been able to find out, it can work and can be healthy.

You cannot be a Vegan and be completely healthy. There are certain things vegans cannot get from their diet and cannot get from supplements.

[G-Flex]

Again, you just keep moving the goalposts.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that what I said is not the case.
There is a slim chance that it isn't, and if it isn't, then we will find out.


Quite frankly, you're taking the kind of stance for which no amount of evidence is sufficient, because you'd just keep saying "well, maybe, just maybe, we're wrong".


I also thought I completely covered that in the last post I made. I don't advocate veganism or vegetarianism for the population as a whole; it wouldn't work. For those who want to try it, it seems like it should work fine and people have been doing it for a while now with seemingly no ill effects. If there's a chance that there WILL be some ill effects, people trying it is essentially the best way to find out, since apparently all of modern nutrition isn't good enough for you.

I'm aware we don't know absolutely everything about nutrition, and that's why I still consider veganism to be a somewhat experimental thing. However, we do know quite a bit about it, especially compared to what we used to, and as far as I can tell and have been able to find out, it can work and can be healthy.

You cannot be a Vegan and be completely healthy. There are certain things vegans cannot get from their diet and cannot get from supplements.

If that were true, and you knew it to be true, then you would name one. The only thing people normally talk about is B12, and that is available in supplement form.

If you can't name one, then you're just blowing smoke.

[Jreengus]

Can't name them because I wasn't paying much attention at the time but I'm getting my information from my aunt who was convincing my sister not to take up veganism. I generally tend to trust her in matters like this as she has a PhD in biology.

[DJ]

Veganism with supplements may be a viable diet for adults, but IMHO anyone who feeds his children a vegan diet is a bad parent.

[G-Flex]

Can't name them because I wasn't paying much attention at the time but I'm getting my information from my aunt who was convincing my sister not to take up veganism. I generally tend to trust her in matters like this as she has a PhD in biology.

In other words, you're trying to tell me stuff that goes against common and established medical knowledge based on stuff that a single person with a PhD in biology said, which you cannot actually remember. No offense, maybe she did have something to say of value, but as it stands, what you're saying is completely unverifiable, and, again, even if true, contradicts conventional modern medical knowledge.

Veganism with supplements may be a viable diet for adults, but IMHO anyone who feeds his children a vegan diet is a bad parent.

This is a bit iffy, yeah, and I'm not sure how I feel about it.

Part of me wants to say that if a vegan diet can give an adult the nutrition he needs, it logically can give a child the nutrition he needs, given that it's properly designed.

The other part of me wants to say that veganism is new enough that, even if all the foods are readily available, we might not be sure enough of how to design the diet itself for children in a way that actually functions properly, and that people should wait until we are.

[DJ]

I think children a lot more sensitive to nutrient deficiencies because they're growing, so stuff that may just make an adult a bit lethargic could have serious detrimental effect on brain development of a child.

With supplements it's easy to get things wrong, especially in children because their needs change a lot as they grow. With a balanced diet it's harder to screw up. A balanced diet should include fish at least once a week, of course.

[G-Flex]

I think children a lot more sensitive to nutrient deficiencies because they're growing, so stuff that may just make an adult a bit lethargic could have serious detrimental effect on brain development of a child.

With supplements it's easy to get things wrong, especially in children because their needs change a lot as they grow. With a balanced diet it's harder to screw up. A balanced diet should include fish at least once a week, of course.

The problem here is that we're assuming that it's magically easy to make a diet balanced for kids if it includes meat/animal products. I think this is a harsh conclusion to jump to.

Supplements are only strictly necessary for 1-3 things, I guess, in a vegan diet, and I don't think too much B12 is really a problem, but you're right to say that supplements are tough to get right with them.

Again, I stand by the statement that it might just be a bit too risky for kids until we're more sure of how it affects adults.

One of my good friends is vegan; I should ask her about this stuff at some point.

[Neruz]

The problem here is that we're assuming that it's magically easy to make a diet balanced for kids if it includes meat/animal products. I think this is a harsh conclusion to jump to.

There's not exactly anything magical about it; our bodies are designed to have a diet that includes meat and animal products. Why would you be surprised that they don't work right if you remove meat and animal products from the menu, and then be surprised when they do if you add them?

That's like suggesting it's a strange and surprising phenomenon that the hole in someone who has been shot just happens to be exactly the right size for the bullet to enter; i mean, what are the odds someone would have a hole in them that perfectly matches the bullet's size and location? This is fascinating stuff this is. Evidence of a divine being maybe? We're talking seriously long odds here.


Or how about the fact that a combustion engine stops running when you try using milk instead of petrol; what are the odds that something as complicated as an internal combustion engine would require petrol, and what are the odds that it would run on most kinds of petrol, but would run better on certain specific kinds of petrol? That's pretty damn wierd don't you think?

Part of me wants to say that if a vegan diet can give an adult the nutrition he needs, it logically can give a child the nutrition he needs, given that it's properly designed.

That part of you apparantly does not understand how biology works; children need different nutrients (and quantities of said nutrients) than adults, due to the fact that children are growing and adults are not.

[Eagleon]

The way parents feed their kids in America, at least, I'd be quite surprised if a vegan with good knowledge of the diet's issues raised a kid that was less healthy than your average lunchable-scarfing, burger-devouring cheese-fest 6th grader. Not to say I like the diet, but I'm living with someone who doesn't feed their kids vegetables beyond the ones you find in tv dinners and Campbell's soups, just giving them supplements every day, so it's kinda a laugh for me seeing this being debated.

I eat anything that I couldn't reasonably huggle instead ;( This includes avians, amphibians, reptiles, fish, crustaceans, mollusks, shrimp, etc. etc. It's biased, and I know it is, but what isn't? Huggleability is as good a criteria as intelligence, ultimately - only we have decided that intelligence and emotion are of higher value. And anyway, it keeps me healthy, so it's fairly easy to keep up with.

[Neonivek]

I will say that we probably eat more meat now then our ancestors (of the time period we are speaking of) did.

[nil]

I will say that we probably eat more meat now then our ancestors (of the time period we are speaking of) did.

Depends on latitude.  Hunter-gathers in the tropics eat/ate tons of plants, but go far enough north and you have cultures like the Inuit who survive(d) almost exclusively on fat and protein; prehistoric mammoth hunters and the like were probably the same way.

Going by evolutionary history, the best diet would probably be something with lots of meat, fruit, veggies and a few hours of vigorous exercise every day.  Since few if any of us probably meet that last requirement, all bets are off (although personally, I only eat grains if there's nothing else around or in sandwiches; I use dairy mostly as a garnish)

[Muz]

I remember a case where a baby died because his vegan parents fed him only raw vegetables. I think they were charged with negligence or something, but don't know how the case turned out.

Still, for those of you who think that it's impossible to live off vegetables, do note that Hindus (and other religious vegetarians) have done it for centuries. And there are a lot of physically big and strong Hindu Indians. According to a friend's doctor, they also suffer a higher rate of heart disease, but that's because they fry everything.