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[Jude]

What was he saying anyway?

That cars are more destructive to air quality than smoking habits are?

I don't see how anybody can argue with that.

[andrea]

when both are outside , or both are inside, I think nobody can say that smoke is worse than cars. And that is why it will be hard to ban smoking in the streets ( that is the rational part of the thing: I personally dislike addictions and mind altering substances. But that is totally personal, and car is still worse than cigarette).
But that works only for the outside, because you will have an hard time finding somebody driving a car inside a bar.
so, while inside smoking is better than inside driving, you will find plenty of the first and none of the second. So, inside places like bars, restaurants, offices it is legit to call air pollution. Smoking areas would also be good enough, if there was proper ventilation and separation of the air I guess.

So, in my opinion, comparison with car is not good for the inside of a building.
on the outside, however, it works perfectly.

Which brings the point of: what are we arguing about, when the car-smoke comparison is used? inside, outside, or in general?

and personally I don't drive. For reasons other than pollution however ( and being under legal age, but I don't plan to use car much).

[Siquo]

@Jude: Me neither, yet there's 20 pages of denial of how incomparable the omnibeneficial and unmissable car is to the evil of needless tobacco smoke. Lucky thing everyone in the world has the Basic Human Right to Own and Ride an Automobile.

Which brings the point of: what are we arguing about, when the car-smoke comparison is used? inside, outside, or in general?

Either both outside, or both inside, although the use of driving inside eludes me.

By the way, I own a car. I drive in it once a week, maybe twice, tops. The amount of luggage a wee-one needs is astonishing, and public transit wasn't feasible anymore.

[Tack]

... Just sayin'... from like, a page ago. I haven't done anything directly to make Siquo's life worse. I haven't trolled, argued, or even gone against any of his Ideas yet. Shame on you, Siquo. Shame.


Also. Why the hell does this thread still exist? Sure. Smoking kills. Sure. Passive smoking kills.

How about we all just get over it, and the next time some asshole is breathing in your face, try this.
"Hey, asshole. Stop breathing in my face."
It will work wonders, if you have good reflexes and/or a medium to large build.

Also, this isn't the "Hey, let's talk about cars and shit" Thread. This is the "Smoke" Thread. Where people go, Aww, man, she caught you? What happened?

We've already derailed, we don't need to take a simple analogy, and blow it way out of proportion.
We don't even need to take a simple analogy.
There shouldn't even have BEEN an analogy.
There should BE sympathy, and possibly hilarity.
Bay12Games = CHILL.

Also, did anyone notice that AtomicWinter has posted in this thread Three Times? My guess is, he doesn't care about the bullshit you're all spouting here. Try being more tolerant, and that goes for both sides of the conversation.

[Cheeetar]

I do believe that warning was slightly unneeded Tack. It already seems to be calming down.

[Tack]

Well... To be honest, I reckon this thread should have been locked a long time ago.

[Siquo]

Aww man, but it's so fun to see people go all.. how do you youngsters say that.. RAEG!!

Especially because they know they're wrong. And can't stand analogies. And they are confronted with the fact that they're more zealous than the Jesus freak quoting bible texts at central station.

Yes, smoking is a bad habit, we all know it, and we all know that there are more bad habits in the world (such as driving a car *snicker*), and we all know that people complaining about other peoples bad habits have no right to do so if they have bad habits themselves.

So I guess we're done. 

[ChairmanPoo]

Yes, smoking is a bad habit, we all know it, and we all know that there are more bad habits in the world (such as driving a car *snicker*), and we all know that people complaining about other peoples bad habits have no right to do so if they have bad habits themselves.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem-tu-quoque.html

Read this and be enlightened little grasshopper

[G-Flex]

@Jude: Me neither, yet there's 20 pages of denial of how incomparable the omnibeneficial and unmissable car is to the evil of needless tobacco smoke. Lucky thing everyone in the world has the Basic Human Right to Own and Ride an Automobile.

That's an awful strawman and you know it.

I never claimed that people have an inalienable right to own a car, or that the world would come crashing down if we didn't have them.

I claimed that, the way first-world societies currently operate, gasoline is an important part of the economy. It's important for people to travel/commute, for shipping goods, etc. There is often not a suitable alternative to this, as alternative/renewable fuels aren't quite what they should be yet; it's not feasible for companies or individuals to ship things, commute, heat buildings/homes, or do a million other things without using fossil fuels. It would be nice if we COULD, and we can still CONSERVE them to a reasonable degree, but we can't just plain get rid of them all at once; we need to put more research into finding alternatives and making them economically feasible for the common person.

Aww man, but it's so fun to see people go all.. how do you youngsters say that.. RAEG!!

Especially because they know they're wrong. And can't stand analogies. And they are confronted with the fact that they're more zealous than the Jesus freak quoting bible texts at central station.

Yes, smoking is a bad habit, we all know it, and we all know that there are more bad habits in the world (such as driving a car *snicker*), and we all know that people complaining about other peoples bad habits have no right to do so if they have bad habits themselves.

So I guess we're done. 

You're not even making sense.

I'm not being "more zealous than the Jesus freak quoting bible texts at the central station". I've met that guy, and I'm not him.

More bad habits existing in the world doesn't mean that you can excuse whichever ones you want. Yes, everybody has some bad habits; that doesn't make them inexcusable. At least bother to read ChairmanPoo's link. "You have bad habits, so any argument you make against my own is invalid" is completely silly and would effectively mean that nobody can criticize anyone for anything, which is absurd. An argument against smoking is just as valid whether the person has no bad habits or a ton of them, and regardless of which ones he has.


Anyone who's actually talked to me at length knows that I like analogies and actually know how to use them. That's why I'm arguing against yours; it relies on similarities between smoking and car-usage that aren't even true. The analogy would make sense if it were perfectly feasible for everybody in the US (or whichever country you choose) to never use a car or use gasoline in any way, but it just isn't. I live in one of the most dense states in the US, and even here, public transportation is absolute trash. I've taken the buses here before to get to class, and sometimes it would take me upwards of two hours (that's four hours per day of just commuting), and sometimes wouldn't run when I need them at all, and not everybody can live within walking/biking distance of everything unless you actually want to invent SimCity2000-style arcologies and place them around overnight for all of us. Oh, and the buses still run on gasoline.

[Siquo]

perfectly feasible

Ouch. You think it's perfectly feasible to stop smoking? Really, your little commuting problems are like skating across an acre of linoleum compared with that. Otherwise you make perfect sense.

And ChairmanPoo, you finally made an argument! A real one!(Well, technically it's an attack on my methods rather than an argument but that's nitpicking.) One that makes sense and actually has any connection to what I said! Good for you! 
(I know that sounded sarcastic, but it was only a little bit. I'm really glad for you)



Aaaaand I'm done with the topic. You guys are the Winners! I'm going outside to smoke a cig.

[G-Flex]

perfectly feasible

Ouch. You think it's perfectly feasible to stop smoking? Really, your little commuting problems are like skating across an acre of linoleum compared with that. Otherwise you make perfect sense.

I said "feasible", not "easy". Of course it's not easy. My point is that a lack of smoking in your life won't have any kind of disastrous effect; it's quitting that's the hard part.

[Jude]

when both are outside , or both are inside, I think nobody can say that smoke is worse than cars. And that is why it will be hard to ban smoking in the streets ( that is the rational part of the thing: I personally dislike addictions and mind altering substances. But that is totally personal, and car is still worse than cigarette).
But that works only for the outside, because you will have an hard time finding somebody driving a car inside a bar.

Well, that brings us to the second point. The thing about being inside is that you can choose to be there or not. If you don't like smoky bars, go to ones where no smoking is allowed. There are plenty, and as long as there are people who hate cigarette smoke, there will always be a niche (in this case, a big enough niche that's it's not even a "niche") for them.

I claimed that, the way first-world societies currently operate, gasoline is an important part of the economy. It's important for people to travel/commute, for shipping goods, etc. There is often not a suitable alternative to this, as alternative/renewable fuels aren't quite what they should be yet; it's not feasible for companies or individuals to ship things, commute, heat buildings/homes, or do a million other things without using fossil fuels. It would be nice if we COULD, and we can still CONSERVE them to a reasonable degree, but we can't just plain get rid of them all at once; we need to put more research into finding alternatives and making them economically feasible for the common person.

The upshot of that ties into the cars-are-worse-than-smoking point; which is that our entire society is based on practices that are wrecking the earth, yet people choose to rant and rave about smoking instead of about the fact that we're running ourselves into the ground.

The fact is, of course, that if we want to save the environment from total obliteration we're going to have to radically change all the systems of how things get done and the economy works, radically meaning from the ground up, and lots of people are probably going to have to accept major downgrades in their standards of living. And of course that isn't going to happen; it's a giant tragedy of the commons. But that's a whole other topic.

As for relevance, well...smoking is one part of those systems, but you can also smoke in a pretty green way; grow your own tobacco and whittle a pipe or something. I'm not sure where I'm going with this, I'm kind of sick and a little delirious

[G-Flex]

The upshot of that ties into the cars-are-worse-than-smoking point; which is that our entire society is based on practices that are wrecking the earth, yet people choose to rant and rave about smoking instead of about the fact that we're running ourselves into the ground.

Oh, I hear you there. I mean, I'd definitely complain about our reliance on petrochemicals before I bitch about smoking, but the former simply isn't something that individuals have a hell of a lot of choice over, and that needs to be handled on a larger scale, whereas smoking is more of an individual decision that society as a whole doesn't really rely on (except certain industries).

[Jude]

Sure. Though smoking is also a personal decision that (unless you're irresponsible and smoke in your house while you have kids, and stuff like that, or get addicted) doesn't largely affect other people.

I guess you can also make the argument it causes health problems that lead to health care bills, but not only is that only true of heavy smoking, it also leads down a road I don't think anybody wants to go down, since again, a lot of hugely systemic things that everybody buys into also cause awful health problems...

[ChairmanPoo]

Glad you are happy. How about you stop the bull and start making some sense for a difference?