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Author Topic: threads about playing as an elf retreat?  (Read 2753 times)

Askot Bokbondeler

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Re: threads about playing as an elf retreat?
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2009, 01:34:03 pm »

you are one blasphemous bastard, aren't you? first you betray armok and play elf, then you betray nature and grab an axe to harm the trees

i'll assist you with that, if you want to make an axe out of a tree's corpse add this to your weapon raws (item_weapon.txt)

Quote
[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_AXE_ELVEN]
[NAME:elven battle axe:elven battle axes]
[DAMAGE:110:SLASH]
[WEIGHT:80]
[SKILL:AXE]
[RANGED:AXE:BLT]
[TWO_HANDED:5]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:5]
[CAN_STONE]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:4]
« Last Edit: November 22, 2009, 02:23:56 pm by Askot Bokbondeler »
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slink

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Re: threads about playing as an elf retreat?
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2009, 02:12:28 pm »

Try searching for the string "playing elves" (inside quotes).  There was also one useful one under "elf retreat", but I got more results with the other string.
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zchris13

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Re: threads about playing as an elf retreat?
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2009, 03:02:36 pm »

Yo bros, cull the forum jokes.  That's not what we are about here.
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sunshaker

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Re: threads about playing as an elf retreat?
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2009, 04:21:44 pm »

Try searching for the string "playing elves" (inside quotes).  There was also one useful one under "elf retreat", but I got more results with the other string.


One of the Mods has npc High Elves which kind of play out like humans but could easily be adapted to be a playable race (civ forge http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=18746.0 ).

I know you could easily make some mods to grow trees as crops and use the smelter to turn them into wood (maybe call it living wood), you could also turn cloth and leather into tents (some kind of construction material, wood or stone or metal, but you would need a lot of it) and cloth into beds (hammocks).

As for weapons once you have a source of "living wood" you can make bows and arrows, I have a smelter reaction to make stone arrows and bone picks (kind of thinking of doing a stone age human/dwarf mod). Better would be to make some kind of living wood metal. [CAN STONE] is a good tag for knives and hand axes.

You might be able to make a type of wool giving animal (sheep or llama) but either you need to make it drop thread via [ITEMCORPSE] (I considered doing this with a "golden Ram" to drop a "Golden Fleece" ie gold thread) or you need to make it use webs (ok sheep silk is kind of silly sounding and it is embarrassing to get caught in a sheep web but how else would you get wool).
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Greymane

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Re: threads about playing as an elf retreat?
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2009, 05:48:41 pm »

I've tried more than one elven retreat in my time (and even was even briefly doing an elf retreat community game until my last computer suffering thermo-nuclear meltdown and I lost absolutely everything on it, forest included), so maybe I can supply a few helpful hints.

Elf Game and Theory: Pre-Game Prep
First and most obvious of all, you're going to want to move/add the CIV_CONTROLLABLE tag in the entity_default raw to the elves (CIV:FOREST).

Once that is done, you're also going to want to permit them to have every single job. Just copy all the PERMITTED_JOB entries from the dwarves and past them over the elves own meager list. Why? Because at the moment, permitted jobs only seem to dictate which jobs you are allowed to give your fortress/retreat population. You can still get immigrants with non-permitted jobs though, which can result in some really annoying cases such as a fisherman who won't stop fishing and whose catch you can't even have cleaned. Depending on just how 'elfy' you plan to be, you don't actually need to USE any of these jobs, just have the option there to switch them off.

Next, you're probably going to want to make a new weapon to replace the bow. Since players can't yet have their military use bows, this is going to be the only way to have ranged-weapon equipped soldiers. It's a fairly simple process, just copy the item_weapon.txt entry for bows and paste it to the bottom. Now change the ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_BOW to something else, like ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_ELFBOW or whatever you like. Change RANGED:BOW:ARROW to RANGED:CROSSBOW:ARROW and save it. Then just go back to the entity_default raw and change the entry WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_BOW to WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_ELFBOW (or whatever name you gave them).

This creates an arrow-using missile weapon that's still called a bow, but uses the crossbow skill instead of bow skill and so allows it to be used in fortress mode. If it bothers you having all your elven bowmen being declared crossbowmen, a simple fix is to just go into creature_standard and add a CROSSBOWMAN_NAME:bowman:bowmen entry to the elves, which will make elven crossbowmen show up as bowmen (you can name them things like bowelf, archer, or goblinbait if you want too, it's up to you).

Another thing that isn't necessary, but that I'd recommend, is going back into the entity_default raw and adding :COMMON to the end of the elven platemail entry (so it would read ARMOR:ITEM_ARMOR_PLATEMAIL:COMMON). This allows you to embark with wooden platemail and allows merchants to bring some for trade. Wooden platemail is nearly worthless, but it's the only way you're going to get 'elf kosher' body armor for your elven soldiers, since nothing the other races will bring you fits and ANY armor is better than no armor. Of course, if you don't intended to be that elfy and are just going to import tons of leather or even dig up some metal for forging, this might not matter.

Elven weapons consist only of swords, spears, and bows. If you have your heart set on elven hammer or macemen, you're going to want to add entries for those to the elven civilization in the entity_default raw. This will allow you to get wooden versions of hammers and maces.

I'd strongly recommend (though again, it's not strictly necessary) you go into the entity_default raw and add DIPLOMAT_BODYGUARDS and MERCHANT_BODYGUARDS tags to the elven civilization. An eleven military is a rather flimsy thing and having even a few extra warm bodies to throw into the meat-grinder of the inevitable ambushes and sieges will do you a lot of good.

One last option involves a lot of cutting and pasting, but can sometimes pay off. Part of the elves 'unique relationship with animals' allows them to embark with a sometimes mind-boggling variety of animals. Everything from giant desert scorpions and unicorns to rhesus macaque. Colorful as these creatures are though, they're not generally useful for much beyond serving as pets and some of them can't even do that. Adding the TRAINABLE tag to the entries of many animals in the creature raws will allow you to supplement your military with some potentially devastating critters (war giant desert scorpions, for example).
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Greymane

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Re: threads about playing as an elf retreat?
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2009, 05:49:05 pm »

Elf Game and Theory: Picking a Site
Unless you plan on being extremely un-elfy and lopping down trees left and right, then the best areas to plant roots for a new retreat are those that have few/no trees at all. Odd as that might sound, embarking in a heavily forested area is a recipe for headache and heartbreak. You'll have no room to build anything and unless you are lucky, will consistently miss out on trade wagons from humans, who will not be able to navigate through the thickly forested map.

Grass or shrublands and deserts actually make some of the best locations. Glaciers and tundra can also work, but anywhere with freezing temperatures can be extremely hazardous for elves. All the dangers they pose to dwarves double for elves, because elves can't even dig into the earth and set up safe reservoirs of water.

Starting on evil biomes can be fun, but it's not for the faint of heart. As with glaciers and tundras, the dangers evil biomes are doubled for elves. Early defense is a challenge, since all your buildings are above ground and your wood supply is likely to be low. If you are unfortunate enough to be targeted by large packs of beasts like foul blendacs, harpies, or werewolves, you might find yourself being wiped out very swiftly.
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Greymane

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Re: threads about playing as an elf retreat?
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2009, 05:50:10 pm »

Elf Game and Theory: Embark Screen
You'll need/probably want to cheat at the embarking screen. Of course, in this case cheating isn't REALLY cheating, because even if you happen to luck out and your pre-selected starting equipment includes 40 barrels of sunshine, without the addition of steel axes or an iron anvil, elves are usually 1500+ points short of what dwarves get and only slightly less short of what humans would get, too. The point average for the other races seems to clock in around 2060 (someone else might be able to confirm/correct this). It's possible, but extremely difficult, to survive and even prosper with the meager few hundred points elves get, but doing this denies you most of the amazing critters.

Grab something like ArtMoney and give yourself a 2000 or so point boost. You'll be far happier for it.

Wood is likely going to be the main item you'll want to bring with you. You'll need it for everything from building shelters to producing all your furniture. You'll want at least one hundred pieces of lumber and probably more (building structures from logs/blocks, even small ones, will eat your initial supply swiftly), but buy it last after you've picked out anything else you might want and just dump all remaining points into getting logs.

Be wary about getting carried away with picking out animals. Most of the best ones are extremely expensive, but their early game benefit is far over shadowed by things like wood or food.

No matter how else you try to focus your retreat, the single most important thing to bring along is at least one proficient carpenter. You'll need one for just about everything and the faster they can work, the quicker you can put up the shelters you're going to need.

There are only a small handful of 'elf kosher' industries your retreat can really focus on. The best way to prosper is to start an elven clothing industry. This does require that you do a little farming, but it's highly likely you'll end up doing this just survive eventually. Even on a map with a ton of undergrowth, once you start getting immigrants you'll be eating through plants for food and drink fairly rapidly and herbalism can only carry you so far. So, starting with some rope reed seeds and a proficient grower, thresher, weaver, and clothier will let you leap right into this.

Booze can also help bring you a profit, but only if your elven civilization has access to sun berries. Sunshine is the single most valuable drink in the game. Selling it can bring you in a decent profit, but you're better off cooking it instead, since that spares you from having to give up a valuable and hard to replace barrel. Obviously enough, taking this route requires a brewer and a cook.

You can also try woodcrafting, if you truly want, but it's hard to recommend. Logs are more valuable for buildings and furniture than low value crafts.
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Greymane

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Re: threads about playing as an elf retreat?
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2009, 05:51:50 pm »

Elf Game and Theory: Military and Defense
Elven military forces, in their flimsy wooden armor and armed with equally flimsy wooden weapons, need to be as skilled as they can to survive against goblin ambushes. Bringing along enough armor and weapons for two of your starting seven and sending them straight into the military can help keep you safe in the long run. Such wooden equipment is dirt cheap, so it doesn't make a major impact into your resources, though it also lacks the quality modifiers later pieces of equipment brought by traders might have. Don't buy shields at the embarking screen. Have your carpenter make them instead, so that they can at least get some minor benefit from a quality modifier.

Whatever you do, do NOT give your military any weapons until they've managed to put many, many levels in wrestling and shield use under their belt. This is an almost universal truth in Dwarf Fortress, but it goes doubly so for elves. While wooden weapons don't do terribly much damage, it has to be remembered that wooden armor doesn't stop much damage either. Kitting your early military out with wooden swords will result in a non-stop string of bruised heads, necks, and spines that will prevent them from ever training again and may even leave them bed ridden. You absolutely cannot afford this, because you'll need every last soldier when the ambushes begin.

A uniquely useful option for elves, one which works far better with them than any other race, is to create a 'civilian milita' out of your non-military elves. By crafting enough bows and arrows and importing enough quivers, you can take advantage of the Hunter profession to give every last member of your retreat a weapon. Your so-called elven hunters will never actually do any hunting (unless you are on an evil biome or an area with an open pit/chasm, in which case do NOT do this unless you want to have them all die in battle against werewolves, skeletal elk, or antman swarms), because elves would never harm such cute furry animals.

They will, however, happily turn those bows on every thief, ambush or siege that shows up. Lacking in skill as they are without the practice from hunting and weak as wooden arrows tend to be, the sheer volume of arrows they are capable of putting out is often more then enough to make up for that.

One of the biggest potential threats to your retreat, even on a good or neutral biome, doesn't actually come from goblins, but from the same cute furry creatures your hunters won't hunt. Animals prone to thievery, such as raccoons or rhesus macaque can be a bane upon your retreat like no other. There is simply no way to really stop them. Your elves will ignore them as they run in and make off with tons of masterwork cloth or clothing or, in the early game, just leave you near starvation by stealing all your food. Creating warehouses with doors can slow them, but it won't stop them. The plundering little thieves just line up outside the door, waiting for the moment you need to open the door to retrieve goods for production or trade, when they will rush in and swipe whatever they can.

As truly elfy elves, you have only two real ways of stopping them. By keeping all of your most valuable goods locked away somewhere and deliberately leaving some cheap, low value items out in the open, you can at least attempt to trick the thieving bastards into only making off with products you're not worried about losing. This will still cost you on fortress value, but it does at least help prevent seeing your master clothier go insane because monkeys stole the six dozen masterwork socks he had made. It does require some vigilance though, as you'll likely need to keep the warehouse door unlocked so your elves can get in and out and so must lock it quickly whenever the thieves enter onto the map.

The second option is somewhat less elfy, but also better for the retreat and requires you to do a little light mining. You'll need some stone, you see, in order to make mechanisms for cage traps. By trapping in or around a warehouse area, you can transform the annoying little buggers from hazards to pets and trade goods. You could also theoretically accomplish this by creating a smelter reaction that allows you to transform wood into mechanisms. Either way works and, hey, don't feel too bad about it. The elves have to get those pets they trade you somehow right?
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dead dwarf

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Re: threads about playing as an elf retreat?
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2009, 08:46:20 pm »

wow!  a lot of great stuff!

this thread has become the thread i was looking for in the first place!

thanks for all of that greymane!  a lot of great information!

i have some questions still but it might be more fun to figure them out playing.  or they might just be "fun".  we will see.
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zchris13

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Re: threads about playing as an elf retreat?
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2009, 12:00:35 am »

Do report.

Greymane, make double sure that that gets on the wiki, stat.
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Beanchubbs

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Re: threads about playing as an elf retreat?
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2009, 12:13:00 am »

I haven't read or seen any threads about playing as elves. Playing them would be easy, surviving with them will be the hard part. I'll play around with the raws tomorrow and tell you what I come up with.

Describe to me what kind of jobs you want the elves to be able to do, and I can test them out with those. The main problem I think would be equipping them with weapons. You can't use bows in Dwarf mode and I have no clue how to change that kind of stuff and I have no intention of digging into that mind boggling stuff. But yeah, I can check out how playing is them works and give you the results.
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Pandarsenic

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Re: threads about playing as an elf retreat?
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2009, 12:28:59 am »

The only labors elves need are plant gathering and tree-hugging. <.<
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sunshaker

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Re: threads about playing as an elf retreat?
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2009, 01:25:49 am »

The second option is somewhat less elfy, but also better for the retreat and requires you to do a little light mining. You'll need some stone, you see, in order to make mechanisms for cage traps. By trapping in or around a warehouse area, you can transform the annoying little buggers from hazards to pets and trade goods. You could also theoretically accomplish this by creating a smelter reaction that allows you to transform wood into mechanisms. Either way works and, hey, don't feel too bad about it. The elves have to get those pets they trade you somehow right?

Code: [Select]
[REACTION:MECHANISM_WOOD]
[NAME:make wood mechanisms]
[SMELTER]
[REAGENT:2:WOOD:NONE:WOOD:NO_MATGLOSS]
[PRODUCT:100:1:TRAPPARTS:NO_SUBTYPE:WOOD:OAK]

I made a fortress on an aquifer once and had no stone access and did not bring any but lots of wood, so I created the above reaction and replaced Rose Gold with it. It has since become one of my regular arsenal of custom reactions.
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CobaltKobold

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Re: threads about playing as an elf retreat?
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2009, 01:49:22 am »

Elf Game and Theory: Embark Screen
You'll need/probably want to cheat at the embarking screen. Of course, in this case cheating isn't REALLY cheating, because even if you happen to luck out and your pre-selected starting equipment includes 40 barrels of sunshine, without the addition of steel axes or an iron anvil, elves are usually 1500+ points short of what dwarves get and only slightly less short of what humans would get, too. The point average for the other races seems to clock in around 2060 (someone else might be able to confirm/correct this).
Dwarfs: standard. Iron anvil, two copper picks, two steel battle axes. X drink Y food Z seeds. 200 spare points beyond that.

I figured (by vanilla-embarking each type) that the way it does it is, it picks worst (cheapest) anvil, best axes, worst (cheapest) diggers, random drinks, random food, random seeds. Then it tacks on 200 points.
So, humans are a bit down (can farm, can brew, can most all but make steel: so, drop points for iron axes instead of steel (400?)). Be aware that non-1h axes do not seem to play nice with woodcutters.
Goblins are a bit down from that again (don't get plants/seeds/drinks, but do get iron still).
Elves, without capacity to work metal at all, get shafted: no anvil, axes, picks. Which is, y'know, 1640 points they don't get.
Kobolds...I don't remember. I think they'd get more points than elves though, as they get metalworking in some capacity...but might be stuck with copper axes if MINOR_METALS is functioning that far.

Humans are simple to play. Goblins slightly less so (carnivores). Elves get so few available jobs you need to screw with stuff.

edit: This is with just adding CIV_CONTROLLABLE to e'eryone, understand.
edit2: Dwarfs clock in at 2060 normally.
2 picks (worst) 2 axes (best/only) 1 anvil (worst), 3 drinks, 20 ea.  2 seeds, 5 ea. 15 of a (cheap) meat, and 15 of an edible-raw plant.

Not sure on selection criteria for anything but the meat (it's always a 2-value, but can be meat or cleaned fish) and metal objects.

Because the drinks available to the dwarves are all equal in value, as are seeds, and there's only one edible plant.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 01:59:09 am by CobaltKobold »
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Christes

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Re: threads about playing as an elf retreat?
« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2009, 02:18:45 am »

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