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[dakarian]

Thus the issue.. Warewolf, BYOR, KotM, or two of such?

[Vector]

I'd run KotM and Werewolf (once the balancing finishes), and try to move in BYOR ... well, quite a bit later.  Too frackin' many BYORs happening right now.  Put a third game fairly close to starting after those two (i.e. start signups once D3 of Werewolf hits, or somesuch), given that we're about to end a good handful.

KotM will keep players cycling through for a long time, which is good... but it's also small.  So I'd say run that and another game, because KotM will keep appetite down while we're still balancing the bureaucracy around here.

I'd also suggest starting to loosen things a bit, because we have an entirely new crop of beginners that wants to play more games, and it'd be nice to get some more regulars around here.  The BMs are bringing in newbs like whoa (especially recently), so it would be a good idea to have something for them to sign up for after finishing their first two games or so.


I've heard 3 separate accounts of people wanting to join more games but being unable to do so, which makes me think that more folks may be in a similar boat.


I think that awareness is helping with most of the players, and that the revamped karma system may help with the rest.  That said, there's still some definite tweakery that needs to happen.  My personal feeling is that karma/grade limits should start showing up for more games than BM.  I saw a comment somewhere about how Lylo always ends up being full of lurkers; that's really not good.  We should be holding ourselves to higher standards than that.

That said, we can't all run S-rank-only games all the time.  I'm hoping that we'll end up with a lot of skilled mods who can make the right decision as to which level entrance need be for their games.  I'm also hoping that we'll end up with a reasonably light entrance + replacement system for newbies in higher-level games--i.e., if B is a requirement, we can also let some N's in with the caveat that those who end up ridiculously over their heads will be replaced without karma loss/downgrading.

(Currently thinking about ZChris and Luke_Prowler in MSPA, for example)

Given the current number of players who aren't playing many games, I think it might be easier to get replacements.

</ramble>



That was probably far more of an answer than you wanted, but hopefully it will help.

[dakarian]

You know you won't see me argue against starting a new game .  KotM is small but it'll always accept signups and even if it ends, it's not a Bastard so it can run again later.

As far as rank requirements, I'm thinking a priority should fall on lower rank games.  Aka: If there's a S-rank and a D-rank in que and only one can go in, D rank goes in. 

Btw, very funny that we started this mess because of 8 games 'overwhelming us', got really worried over 12 games running and many were dead, and now we have 10 games going and we have players complaining about the lack of new games.

Sidenote, as far as N rank, I believe that the only rank they can't join is S rank only.  As it stands, as long as the N rank asks for the sub, they won't go below a B (maybe B- if excessive) once they get the needed 5 games.  If nothing else, they can always keep joining Beginner games since those always allow N ranks.

[Mephansteras]

So, we have 3 games in the sign-up queue section. Is there really a need for more? I though the current plan was to control which games get to go to the sign-up queue, but once there they can start as soon as they have enough players?

[dakarian]

BYOR is going to stay in que, so it's just Werewolf and King of the Mafia.  That'll do for now.  Note that Bastard(perhaps) has already started (so it doesn't need the 'signup-full' title)

Once a game is allowed to start signups, they are Active so they can just play once they fill up. 

[CobaltKobold]

Queue.

Did I call it Bastard(perhaps) originally? Bastard(Maybe) makes for a much sillier acronym:
IMBMM(BM(M))

[Rysith]

Rysith's Semi-Bastard mod is ready to go for 13 players, and would like a slot in the signups in early January (when I will return from limited-internet vacation)

[Mr.Person]

I believe it is now time for any games that have full sign-ups to go right now. Since I think we don't have any like that, I think we should let a game go into sign-ups and let another go into sign-ups once the first one starts proper.

[Vector]

Not sure--we've got a couple of games that are in game-death/just died, and I have a sinking feeling that King of the Mafia is about to go down.

Spoiler: Notes on current list of games (click to show/hide)

* Bring Your Own Role Mafia -  Pandarsenic Edition -- Still going, unfortunately.  Mid-game D:
* MSPA Mafia - Almost died, probably close to Lylo.
* LCS Mafia - Seems to be mostly inactive.  About to hit lylo, I think?
* BYOR Mafia 2 - Almost died, near the beginning.
* Wizard Duel 3 - Almost Lylo.  Seems to be going okay.
* Paranormal 12 - Early game.  Going all right.
* One Lynch Mafia - Just starting.  Some worries due to speedy day end.
* King of the Mafia - Just starting.  Worried feelings due to speedy day end.

Never mind.  Yeah, it's time to start up a couple more, especially because IMBML(BM(M)) finished so quickly.  I think Archangel's Werewolf has first priority, but I haven't seen him around for a long time (he didn't even show up D2 of BYORII); don't know if this is running or not.  Anyone want to shoot him a PM?

Spoiler: Available planned games (click to show/hide)

* Horrible Role Mafia - Leafsnail's already running something
* Supernatural Mafia - Needed balancing?
* Lights Out Mafia - Did this need balancing?  Seemed like it was mostly ready
* Zai's Mafia - I think this is in the beginning stages, still
* Aztec Mafia - Been heavily discussed; I think it's ready to go
* Vote Mafia 4 - 4th run by Webadict, likely ready but he's already running one
* Duality Mafia - Don't think this ever got much talking
* INFILTRATE//SEEK//ELIMINATE - Probably ready to go

I haven't heard any of the people involved for these say they wanted to retract their game, so I guess we should pick one or two of these to run next.  Any preferences?


From a logical perspective, I'm thinking that we should go with:

* Aztec Mafia
* INFILTRATE//SEEK//ELIMINATE

Both have been heavily discussed and balanced.  The hosts are free from other duties (other than GryphGlyph's BM, but that doesn't count).  Both games have attracted quite a bit of interest, even long after their initial discussion.  Further, both should be reasonably large.

[Apostolic Nihilist]

Eh. I'm not sure if more games now is the best thing for the board. As you noted, most games are relatively inactive; more games running parallel will draw activity from the few that cling to life.

Aztec seems like it'll be quick, so I think going ahead with that would be fine.

It just doesn't feel right to run more games when +70% of the current ones are in their dying throes, or just barely recovering.

[Mr.Person]

I haven't been checking either thread much, but I think Aztec should go before I/S/E.

Actually, we need a list of games ready to go, so anybody willing to take sign-ups right now, please speak up. It'll take a little bit to get everything organized, which is good, since I'd kind of like another game to actually finish before filling out the sign-ups of yet another game.

It's too bad nobody is running a holiday setup. Just think, we could have Santa giving out coolio powers to the good townspeople while the naughty mafia get coal. Throw in a Kwanzaa themed serial killer and Hanukkah themed cult and you're set!

[webadict]

Vote Mafia will be ready whenever I finish with BYOR2 and there's room.

[Vector]

Eh. I'm not sure if more games now is the best thing for the board. As you noted, most games are relatively inactive; more games running parallel will draw activity from the few that cling to life.

Aztec seems like it'll be quick, so I think going ahead with that would be fine.

It just doesn't feel right to run more games when +70% of the current ones are in their dying throes, or just barely recovering.

That's the question--do people want to play Mafia, or not?  If they do, then more games might be precisely the right answer.

Games are going to die, for all kinds of reasons.  Yes, it sucks.  Our goal here, I think, is to run a maximal number of polished, fun games with high activity.  In this case, I think that doesn't mean that we should stop running games.

Take a look at the list again, and realize that games typically take a week or so to finish setting up.  We've got 3/8 of our games in Lylo or about to hit it.  We've got 2/8 more games that promise to be relatively quick/painfree.  2/8 are BYOR pits of death, which I don't think are losing activity by virtue of other games--it's the games in and of themselves that are losing the activity.  Finally, 1/8 is running just fine and hitting its stride.

I think part of the problem is game quality, and the fact that BYORs are in low demand at the moment (except for in your court, Zai.  Don't worry, I remember).


At the moment, I'm identifying a few key problems.

1. Disinterest in games (BYOR Panda, BYOR II, DOGMII, KWN:DE)
2. Lurkerdeath (MSPA, NSBMII, LCS)
3. Hammers (BYOR Panda, NSBMII)
4. Game size (BYOR Panda, BYOR II)

The main one that bothers me is the lurkerdeath, and I'm not entirely sure what to do about it.

[Mr.Person]

Actually, I just noticed something. After the first Kill Webadict Now, everybody and their grandma ran a bastard mod setup. After the first BYOR, everybody and their grandma ran their own BYOR. If bandwagoning isn't good in game, what makes you guys think it's ok for the mod to do it?

Seriously guys, take the time to make the setups high-quality and balanced. Don't go crazy with the roles or rules, it's better if everything is balanced than to be crazy. I'm not saying any of the setups were bad, it's just some of them don't seem as polished or balanced as they could of been. They might of seem a bit, how you say, rushed. ToonyMafia IV comes to mind here. As much as I loved the roles in that one, the lack of a standard mafia nightkill bit them in the ass. KotM obviously has had its fair share of crazy unbalanced whatever the fuck, but that's to be expected. I DID pick Traitor, after all. There's also Meph's insistance of inserting broken-ass roles into Paranormal, but I digress. And of course, there's the original DF Mafia and Pirate Mafias. When will people learn the confirmable town-only roles in free-PM forum mafia are bad? It's not like the truth-telling roles helped out any.

But hey, we all make mistakes. I know I did, but just take some time and polish, polish, polish! Strongly consider what kind of affect the roles you're adding and rules you're messing with will cause. Specific things to avoid include easily-confirmable townies, 100% trustable inspection results, too many PRs/not enough townies and mafiosos, jesters, post-resiction roles, and roles that can do multiple things at the same time. I don't mean stuff like Jedi (although Jedi is a very powerful role), I mean stuff like X-Morpher. Used properly, X-Morpher can confirm a player's alignment 100% and potentially set the game up for a guaranteed win for the town. Both of those are bad enough on their own, but TOGETHER? That's bullshit.

[dakarian]

Put up Near-Mountainous Mafia into the cue. 

9p, 1 Doc, 1 Mafia Roleblocker.  Rest vanilla.

We need to get some practice with our day game.