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[Bookthras]

So as I said earlier, I have a bit of an itch to run a game. I welcome people's thoughts, and offer these points:

a) Dariush is right, I will abandon for now the idea of a Vengeful game (they are fun, but lurking is murder on them, so it may not be the time).

b) I will put any idea on hold as soon as Meph is ready with P22 (or whatever); it would be lots more fun, and I'd much rather play that than run a thing.

c) I think Cybrid VI would be a fun setup, for a ten-or-so player game.

d) or...

...I'm also thinking about trying my clumsy feet onto JanusTwoface's big ugly shoes, and try to run a Sorcerer's Apprentice game. For those unfamiliar, it's a standard town+mafia 9 or 12p game with three power roles (in my version, scum is guaranteed one Sorcerer), where the power roles become more and more powerful with the support of the players. You support a school of magic (colour) via PM to the Mod, and that sorcerer's powers increase for the night. Previous games: [ I ] [ II ] [ III ]

A problem in earlier Sorcerer's Apprentice games was to entice all players to support something (most players just "forgot" or neglected to support). Some options to entice them were tried, with varying success. I propose that people can't vote until they have supported a school of magic. They can post in red, but it won't actually be counted until they've PM'd their support for a colour. They can change this at any time during the day phase, and can support dead or absent sorcerers/colours. There may be a small "perk" or bonus gained by supporting a given school.

These games have been in the past also the ones with limericks, which have been endless fun, but have nothing to do with the actual game. An advantage of me running it instead of playing it is that I'll limit the limericks to the game flavour.

         Tim Blue's Academy's murderer
         was surrounded by many a perjurer.
               The deeds done were tragic,
               so an Apprentice, with magic,
         must lynch the responsible Sorcerer.

So how 'bout Sorcerer's Apprentice IV? Anyone interested? Would this be a better or worse idea than Cybrid VI?

[Dariush]

Meph, you have a fucking monopoly on good games on this forum. You can take a 10-dollar fee for inning and people will still flock to you. 

And I totally support a SA. The last one was hilarious.

Everyone: "Dariush is obvscum! Lynch him!"
Me: "Fuck no! Jim is obvscum, even though actually he is obvtown!"
Everyone: "Fuck no!"
Dariush is lynched! He was scum!
Everyone: "Jim is obvscum, Dariush was bussing him way too hard!"
Jim: "Fuck no!"
Jim is lynched! He was town! Scum wins!
Me: "Yay!"
Jim: "FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU"

[Jim Groovester]

You're mixing up SAMafias I & III. I was lynched in SAM I, in SAM III you made that terribly obvious fakeclaim.

Talk about a series of games where the town snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.

A problem in earlier Sorcerer's Apprentice games was to entice all players to support something (most players just "forgot" or neglected to support). Some options to entice them were tried, with varying success. I propose that people can't vote until they have supported a school of magic. They can post in red, but it won't actually be counted until they've PM'd their support for a colour. They can change this at any time during the day phase, and can support dead or absent sorcerers/colours. There may be a small "perk" or bonus gained by supporting a given school.

Making assists compulsory (since that's effectively what you're doing) is not a good idea; consider a situation where all the town sorcerers get knocked off early. The town has no reason to assist the scum sorcerer but is forced to to lynch people they find scummy.

The problem was more or less solved by the players urging everyone to make sure to cast their assists, and if they didn't then they sucked and were horrible people. The only reason it was a problem in the first one is because nobody really knew what they were doing.

So how 'bout Sorcerer's Apprentice IV? Anyone interested? Would this be a better or worse idea than Cybrid VI?

I'd go for either.

[Bookthras]

Making assists compulsory (since that's effectively what you're doing) is not a good idea; consider a situation where all the town sorcerers get knocked off early. The town has no reason to assist the scum sorcerer but is forced to to lynch people they find scummy.

Yeah, to solve that I added the option to support "dead or absent" schools; say there are purple, blue, and red, first two of which died and flipped town, no townie would support red, but they can support yellow or green (absent) or even the dead purple or blue, any of which would give them a vote, a perk or small bonus (different for each colour), and would not support the leftover known scum school.

Townies will always have a safe support school, guaranteed non-scum (but if absent, won't help town PRs). The only bad move is not to send anything, in which case, they get no bonus, and their vote doesn't count.

...does that sound too bad? I like the compulsory thing -- it forces players to be at least somewhat engaged; requiring them to send at least one PM during the day doesn't sound too onerous, does it? Or should they be allowed to "forget" and vote and get no bonus and lurk through the day with no consequences?

Also a general question: how would this game be better or worse if PMs were allowed between players (cc:Mod) like in a Paranormal? Never mind, it'd probably make the support thing too complicated and scum-unfriendly -- unless someone tells me otherwise I'll just default to no-PMs like most games.

[Dariush]

...does that sound too bad? I like the compulsory thing -- it forces players to be at least somewhat engaged; requiring them to send at least one PM during the day doesn't sound too onerous, does it? Or should they be allowed to "forget" and vote and get no bonus and lurk through the day with no consequences?

Players aren't monkeys. The whole 'support dead school' is dumbfuckstupid both from gameplay and flavor standpoint. If you can't host a game with a tested set of rules that proved to be good without fucking with them, don't host.

[Bookthras]

Thank you for your opinion, so eloquently put. I will take it under advisement.

But in your view: if all town Sorcerers are dead, should townies choose "none"? Or if there is a known safe "turquoise" school known non-scum that'd give them a bonus, shouldn't they choose that instead?  Or is your point that the rules are immutable? (in which case I'd point out that rules changed between each game already, trying to solve precisely this problem.)

In any case, I'm not married to the vote restriction thing; I think it would be good, and encourage players to be engaged in the game, and a penalty (or lack of a bonus, like last game) should be assessed for failing to assist. But there are several ways to achieve that. We'll see.

[Dariush]

Scratch the 'scum must have a sorcerer' rule. That will solve all problems.

[webadict]

You're mixing up SAMafias I & III. I was lynched in SAM I, in SAM III you made that terribly obvious fakeclaim.

Talk about a series of games where the town snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.

Wanna talk about a game where defeat was snatched? How about the Paranormal game where I literally killed/found every scum member.

First Night, Vector advanced dopps a War Vet, but is also shot by me. Regardless, she's dead. Woo. What basically happens is I get a small town base of Nerux and I, and PROVE Leafsnail is scum. Kashyyk gets lynched though, so at Night, I figure, hey, it somehow became lylo. Kill Pandarsenic.

Pandarsenic flips scum. I get killed.

Well, well, well. Three townies that ALL know Leafsnail is scum.

They decide on a No Lynch. Because, seriously, there are NO LYLO BREAKERS IN THE ENTIRE GAME.

GUESS WHAT? LEAFSNAIL IS A DOUBLE VOTER. OOOOOOOOOO RIIIIIIIIGHT. I FORGET HOW UTTERLY STUPID THE TOWN IS. THEY CAN'T LYNCH PROVEN SCUM TO SAVE THEIR LIVES!

If you play so passive, one scum idea is going to make you do whatever they want. It's sickening.

[Jim Groovester]

I like the compulsory thing

I hate it. It doesn't add anything to the game and it's obnoxious and intrusive. I would veto it on those grounds alone.

Also a general question: how would this game be better or worse if PMs were allowed between players (cc:Mod) like in a Paranormal? Never mind, it'd probably make the support thing too complicated and scum-unfriendly -- unless someone tells me otherwise I'll just default to no-PMs like most games.

PMs were already allowed between players. I wouldn't change that rule.

It's not a rule that came into play in SAM I, but it was a notable (if unsuccessful) part of SAM II. I don't think it came into play in SAM III.

Having power roles powered by town assistance is just begging for organization to happen, and it's basically impossible to do that without PMs.

[Bookthras]

Fair enough on both points. PMs are in, vote restriction is out. We'll figure some other way to encourage engagement.

[Leafsnail]

Well, well, well. Three townies that ALL know Leafsnail is scum.

They decide on a No Lynch. Because, seriously, there are NO LYLO BREAKERS IN THE ENTIRE GAME.

GUESS WHAT? LEAFSNAIL IS A DOUBLE VOTER. OOOOOOOOOO RIIIIIIIIGHT. I FORGET HOW UTTERLY STUPID THE TOWN IS. THEY CAN'T LYNCH PROVEN SCUM TO SAVE THEIR LIVES!

It's my 50% unlynchable power.

[Dariush]

We'll figure some other way to encourage engagement.

Oooh, I know. 1) Ban all people with a steady history of lurking/abandoning games (i.e. Jokerman and TolyK) and anybody without at least one BM completed from entering. 2) Do not start the game without at least one person in replacement queue. Instant profits.

By the way, what happened with that activity tracking table or whatchacallit that Wuba started sometime long ago?

[Nerjin]

We'll figure some other way to encourage engagement.

Oooh, I know. 1) Ban all people with a steady history of lurking/abandoning games (i.e. Jokerman and TolyK) and anybody without at least one BM completed from entering. 2) Do not start the game without at least one person in replacement queue. Instant profits.

By the way, what happened with that activity tracking table or whatchacallit that Wuba started sometime long ago?

I don't like the second part of part 1. I assume BM means Bastard Mafia. I've been looking around here for a bit. I haven't found any currently running games that would allow a first time player [myself] from joining. Usually it's because I haven't found any games not already in progress. I'm trying to learn how to play.

My point is this: Why would you want to block people who haven't done a BM yet? Why not let them learn the ropes through whichever game?

[Hapah]

BM = Beginner's Mafia. They more more or less back-to-back so that people can learn the ropes and/or be vetted before getting into the big leagues.

[Shakerag]

We'll figure some other way to encourage engagement.

Oooh, I know. 1) Ban all people with a steady history of lurking/abandoning games (i.e. Jokerman and TolyK) and anybody without at least one BM completed from entering. 2) Do not start the game without at least one person in replacement queue. Instant profits.

By the way, what happened with that activity tracking table or whatchacallit that Wuba started sometime long ago?

I don't like the second part of part 1. I assume BM means Bastard Mafia. I've been looking around here for a bit. I haven't found any currently running games that would allow a first time player [myself] from joining. Usually it's because I haven't found any games not already in progress. I'm trying to learn how to play.

My point is this: Why would you want to block people who haven't done a BM yet? Why not let them learn the ropes through whichever game?

Beginner's Mafia.