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[Geb]

If those reactions are repeatable, then it just becomes consistent science and loses the magical feel.

If the reactions AREN'T predictable in any way, then it just becomes a random mishmash of stuff that doesn't even make sense and isn't consistent.

And that's the problem, really. You need magic to be consistent enough that people can actually use it to serve a purpose, but inconsistent enough where it doesn't just become a fully practical technology.

How I imagined it working was that each product takes three raw materials to make, and is a two stage process. The first reaction between raw materials is always going to create a randomly named reagent product. If you've got the right third material, you'd then unlock a reaction between intermediate reagent and that to make a randomly named product.

The only way to figure out what the stuff does, of course, would be the "test the potion" job, involving a nearby volunteer.

From then on it's just one more discovered reaction, something you could turn into an industry, or ignore.

Ideally, once you've got a dwarf with an alchemy skill above competent, this all just disappears and you can make potions or whatever with their function in brackets after the name directly from their raw materials without messing about with reagent steps.

[G-Flex]

Sure, except by the time world history passes the 100th year, any civ with access to given materials will have already figured out what happens when you mix all of them, and there's no reason to force the player to experiment, especially when the results wind up being predictable anyhow.

[Silverionmox]

Hmm. I wouldn't like to have to work out a new potion for every dwarf, that would irritate me and many others. Having the potency be influenced by the drinking dwarf would be a better idea in my opinion (I'm reminded of Asterix and Obelix) because then potions would still be a limited resource in terms of actual usefulness, but any dwarf could, in theory, try a potion. Getting each and every dwarf (and only one dwarf at a time) to drink one potion for every possible combination of alchemical ingredients would be plain boring.

Also, the idea was meant to incorporate some sense of the thing from which it was taken, which is why I like Amalgam's idea so much. We're straying into A+B = C, rather than A+B = mix of A+B.

The intention was that a sufficiently skilled alchemist knows how to make a potion that does x for dwarf y, but he has to adapt the process and some of the ingredients a bit. Combined with experimentation it would be busywork again, what we're trying to avoid.

[aepurniet]

Historically, things such as the behaviour/character of the alchemist were deemed important. To make pure metals, you were supposed to live a pure lifestyle. Which is why we talk about laboratories: laborare (working, practicing) + orare (praying, meditating).

maybe a masterful alchemical (sp?) potion gives the desired effects, while an average one does nothing. potions with no quality give opposite and adverse effects.  i sorta recall (or made up) that booze has a hidden quality that affects value, something similar could be used to hide the quality of the potion.  also if you use masterful ingredients (i know not all items have a quality yet), and mince/grind/chop/powder or whatever them masterfully, and blend/distill/boil (or whatever) them masterfully then you have a potion that has the desired effects.  maybe the formula for a potions potency is dictated by its value, the higher the value compared with its theoretical max, the more likely it is to work.

if you combine a system like that with the formulas being unknown at the start, then the power of alchemy should be reserved only for the most persistent of fortresses, and wont unbalance gameplay early.  you would have to spent lots of time playing with the formulas (or the dwarves would do this by themselves) and developing skill to actually unleash the power. maybe the alchemist could also be a noble position (like the philosopher), who works in the laboratory.

the raw ingredients for the most powerful alchemy should also be something that is not readily available at the start.  im thinking elephant ears, tigers tails, giant eagle eyeballs, titan toes, (they probably don't all have to be alliterations), etc...

[Silverionmox]

maybe a masterful alchemical (sp?) potion gives the desired effects, while an average one does nothing. potions with no quality give opposite and adverse effects.

Exploit: order your beginning alchemist to produce potions of weakness. Another one: potion of intelligence. drink. make another potion of intelligence, but better because you're smarter. etc. (cfr. TES:Morrowind:).

The recipes don't need to be completely random, I agree. You should be able to stockpile specific ingredients to prepare for certain.. situations. What I'm trying to avoid is nameless alchemists in cubicles, mass producing game-breaking potions. How?
- Alchemists should tend to live in a sphere-appropriate way (materials, furniture, environs) for the stuff they make. They'll demand or buy appropriate stuff and pick appropriate living quarters if you let them.
- Attuning a potion to a specific person, time or place. In most cases that might be limited to adding an ingredient or changing a procedure (eg. shaking instead of stirring), which the alchemist does automatically. Special procedures (preparing it at a mountaintop, submerge it in a well, etc.) might be added also - they could be part of some regular recipes as well.

Without additional effort like the above, potions shouldn't be more powerful than a cup of coffee or a mug of beer. The effect will be that your alchemists need a dazzling variety of ingredients, something that the game is very well suited for. They'll also develop recognizable living quarters and clothing.

[Pilsu]

Alchemy was never supposed to be that random though. Hidden potion quality changing the effects is great but it has to be dependent on more than just the skill of the mixer. Impurities might cause side effects. A hidden shelf life is an option.

Potions could also be affected by existing stats. Say, drinking a strength potion would have a stronger effect on a weaker dwarf, perhaps doing nothing for an already strong one. Alternatively, potions could amplify existing strength, increasing strength exponentially. Stats could also be required to handle the effects lest they turn detrimental


Side effects are a nice way to balance high end potions. Sure you can chug a Titan's Might elixir but it also drives you temporarily berserk (or sometimes even permanently. Yikes). A revitalization potion might give you a boost of energy but make you feel faint or fall unconscious as it gradually fades. Potions could also affect personality a few points at a time so anyone with a habit of chugging strength potions inevitably turns into an ornery asshole. Existing stat potential decreasing with use would also limit their usefulness. You don't much care about that by the time you only have a handful of men left and orcs are banging on the inner sanctum door.

[Rowanas]

I'm glad someone decided to necro this thread, cheers.

I most prefer the idea of the elixirs altering many things instead of just one. For instance, the potion made of a titan would grant many (pre defined in the raws) titan-esque attributes. Your dwarf might pick up extra size or strength, but anything else that normally afflicts titans is also up for grabs. That would mean that if the game picks, say, 5 titan traits and merges them with 2 different dwarves on 2 occasions, that one dwarf would become strong and stupid while the other might be granted size (rendering them unable to use dwarven armour) and sluggishness

[aepurniet]

I'm glad someone decided to necro this thread, cheers.

maybe we are talking about it in a little too much detail, i think any ideas are good ones, even if toady decides to throw them away.  at least it food for thought, and an indirect way to influence the direction of the game we all love so much.

Exploit: order your beginning alchemist to produce potions of weakness. Another one: potion of intelligence. drink. make another potion of intelligence, but better because you're smarter. etc. (cfr. TES:Morrowind:).

one work around to exploits would be to not allow the ordering of individual dwarves to consume potions.  certain potions could be assigned to military duty (much like food rations are done today), to healthcare, or as recreational 'potions'.  some of these could actually get the dwarves acting drunk (like an increase to happiness / socializing, but a decrease to intelligence / work ethic.  i really like the idea of a sphere based +/- system, where the potions themselves are somewhat balanced and almost have a net zero effect overall (although the pluses would be what you are after in gameplay terms).  this would also mimic the net zero effects of all the real life alchemy people have accomplished during history. (although it turns out those were actually zero +/- the placebo factor)

[Fadrion]

I think the ideas for the effects of alchemical products is interesting but some of the ideas for the creation process are off the mark

The creation of herbal products doesn't need more than one ingredient but others with the same effects can be used to add to the overall potency. The process of creating a basic tincture(potion) is to:
1: soak ground herbs in high-proof alcohol(the mercury) for 7 to 40 days (40 being an alchemical month)
2: strain off the liquid(sulphur and mercury) which can be used as the potion or saved to make a stone
3: calcine(burn) the solid matter obtained in step 2 to create your "salts" which can be taken in water or used as the other part of the stone
4: for maximum effect the sulphur and mercury can be added(imbibed) into the salts to create a stone which can be reused as it charges a liquid with its healing properties and will not dissolve if made correctly

I cant say how animal or mineral alchemy works exactly as I'm only beginning down the real-life alchemical path but if anyone wants more info on the process of herbal alchemy I'm available at koty3@live.com

[Nikov]

I'd like to see alchemical properties assigned to various animal or creature parts based on their spheres. Say we have a satyr. They have a token for a 'Lust' sphere. Satyrs might show up as gods of lust or whatnot. Well, they also grow horns. Dwarves could kill satyrs, grind up the horns, and then distribute the potions through some mechanism that will result in huge boosts fertility rates.

I probably chose this example poorly.

*throws it out there. Way, way far out there*

[axus]

I wanted to bump this old thread instead of making a new one.

I recently "acquired" a large stock of Golden Salve, and made a nice profit trading it to the humans.  I was thinking, it would be nice for the hospital to use it when dressing wounds and have better healing properties.

[Pilsu]

That's assuming golden salve is magical. The plants have a soothing fragrance, it could just as well be a perfume component with mild intoxicating effect.

[Rakeela]

Perfume with an intoxicating effect?  Wait, so if you're wearing that, you get people drunk by simple proximity to them?  What a fascinating idea.

Modified:  I really should comment on the alchemical thing too, so I'm going to edit this post.  I do like the idea of alchemy becoming more powerful.  I'm not sure it needs to be "magic" at all.  I like the idea of tying it spheres somehow, and having it be different in different worlds.  However, it seems like no matter what we do, we're going to have alchemists be either useless, or capable of working valuable industry.

My suggestion is that the Alchemist be an appointed noble, like the Bookkeeper.  The Alchemist should have noticeable demands in terms of room and office quality, and they should refuse to work if they're not met.  That will prevent "hordes of faceless alchemists churning out potions".  Every fortress will have One alchemist.

That alchemist should not (usually) produce soap.