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[Grek]

I think there should be a 'shack' a master's workshop and a factory.

The shack requires just building material and works ok.

The master's workshop has to be assigned to a dwarf and requires that that dwarf have a masterpeice. It dwarf pays rent on the shop and can take aprenteces.

A factory is 5x5, requires mechanical power, and many more parts than the other workshop. A factory sized forge would need 3 anvils. It would allow multiple dwarfs to work at the same location.

[Mechanoid]

quote:Originally posted by Derakon:
a progression from bad shops to good shops.

One statement... In fact, just 3 words that shows you how totally useless the shack is, as you've suggested it:

STARTING EQUIPMENT SETUP

Why bother making the tools if you can just take them with you from the very start? You wouldn't even need to build a shack, you could just bring a bellows, gem clamp, and all the other assorted specialist tools with you at the begining.
Players can do this even now, by taking 10 copper picks with them; all the picks they should ever need for the entire game span, even if they somehow manage to kill off 9 miners or lose 9 picks before they hit even one chunk of weapons-grade ore.

[Dont forget that there would be a "pit of total fucking uselessness"©®™ that would engulf every stage of growth behind your current one, until you reach the end of the line. It's the cancer that's killing MMOs.
Sorry if i sound like an ass, but it's the truth. If copper pickaxes couldn't go through granite in the current verison and you had no iron or traders for a long long while, goddamn that'd be annoying.]

[ March 18, 2008: Message edited by: Mechanoid ]

[Derakon]

quote:Originally posted by Mechanoid:
<STRONG>
One statement... In fact, just 3 words that shows you how totally useless the shack is, as you've suggested it:

STARTING EQUIPMENT SETUP

Why bother making the tools if you can just take them with you from the very start?</STRONG>

Certainly you could do this for some of the shops. But you won't be able to afford it for anywhere near all of the shops that you'll want the highest quality version of.  Most people don't even bother with anvils as it stands; should they bother with bellows, spools, saws, clamps, pots and pans, tongs, pliers, ball-peen hammers, chisels, lathes, and I'm sure you get the picture by now.

Yes, making some shops better than others means that some shops are worse than others. You are encouraged to upgrade when you can, but you won't be able to upgrade immediately unless you make it a focused effort. Again, the entire point is to let there be more progression during the course of the game, to give the player a feeling of accomplishment when they perform an upgrade.

[Draco18s]

quote:Originally posted by Mohreb el Yasim:
<STRONG>have you ever heard about Rifts (the RPG)?</STRONG>

Yes.  My friend Jim was killed 200 feet up my two skyscrapers falling on him (that whole "creating a black hole to avoid falling to death thing).

And the time-traveling velociraptor and the sentient fire engine.

Yes, I've heard of Rifts.  I think Jim (despite having designed a Paranoia mission capable of supporting 256 players) is afraid to run a game.

[numerobis]

quote:Originally posted by Mechanoid:
<STRONG>[Dont forget that there would be a "pit of total fucking uselessness"©®™ that would engulf every stage of growth behind your current one, until you reach the end of the line. It's the cancer that's killing MMOs.
Sorry if i sound like an ass, but it's the truth. If copper pickaxes couldn't go through granite in the current verison and you had no iron or traders for a long long while, goddamn that'd be annoying.]</STRONG>

If the game were stupid, then, yes, it would be an annoying game.  But it's not, and the present proposals don't seem to change that.  You *could* bring stuff at embark, or you *could* trade for it, or you *could* bootstrap all on your own.  And, indeed, we already make that decision with anvils, weaponry, food production, etc.  At the moment, we cannot bootstrap metalsmithing.

[Draco18s]

I think I'd rather see a significant speed reduction (and stone drop?) if using an ill-suited pick (i.e. copper mining into granite) than no ability to penetrate at all.

[The-Moon]

quote:Originally posted by Lyrax:
<STRONG>I'm not sure whether to support this idea.

On the one hand, it allows for more growth once you've got a half-dozen of all your workshops.  'cause you have to upgrade them.  Would also help explain why not everyone has high-quality goods.

On the other hand, it makes the game even more complex.  It's already complex.</STRONG>

Its not that complex, you give it way too much credit. Maybe you should have stated, "In my own Opinion, DF is already complex".

In my opinion DF is not complex enough. DF has a ways to go before it even scratches the surface of complex.

On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being most complex. DF is about a 3, maybe a 2.5 to me.

DF took me about a good 2 months to learn completely. Then it got boring as hell  

Don't get me wrong, i'm not complaining, i know this is only alpha, im sure one day DF will be complex. But currently it is not in my opinion. At least it could be a a lot more complex then it is now, if anything.

The main think it lacks is micromanagement. Theres just not enough of it. I don't have enough control with my dwarfs or with my fort.

[ March 19, 2008: Message edited by: The-Moon ]