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Author Topic: Employing Mechanics in DF (mazes, computing, repeaters, etc)  (Read 7807 times)

The Architect

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Employing Mechanics in DF (mazes, computing, repeaters, etc)
« on: November 13, 2009, 11:28:14 pm »

Alright, I have some questions and I'd like to know where the DF community currently stands on some things.

DF has some nice mechanical capabilities allowing a lot of free reign with setting up technical systems, usually employed in the form of defense systems. So, I have some questions. Some of these are things I am experimenting with right now:

1) Can a waterwheel be arranged to run off an artificial waterfall, resulting in the normal 100 power (which would also allow it to be pumped back to the source, with your power gain growing the more z-levels you drop it through waterfalls without it hitting a reservoir). And/or: will arranging it so that an artificial water supply flows under a waterwheel before dropping again result in power?

2) Has anyone employed logic computers to a purpose in DF? Is it even possible to do so without devices being more fine-tuned (such as Toady allowing us to set the delay on them)?

3) Does anyone have some functioning labyrinths to show off? One method I heard suggested was employing a repeater and/or pressure plates to open and close doors, allowing enemies to walk the maze.
A) I was thinking it could be done so that the exits were stairs leading to other z-levels and freedom, with the dead-ends are constructed by doors/bridges connected to pressure plates blocking an exit. You start with some exits open, and when an enemy enters the dead-end and triggers the plate, the door closes, forcing them to find another path.
B) Another feature I plan to implement is placing some glass walls (windows) in a maze, then placing some creatures hostile to each other (such as a tame dragon when mazing orcs) as a type of trap which will be triggered when an enemy walks in front of a glass wall and hits a pressure switch (causing the dragon to be released, see them through the glass wall, and begin pursing them through the maze).
C Another feature I plan to implement is spike traps and hatches hooked to pressure plates. With the hatches, I am hoping to drop enemies onto a pressure plate in a room below with an exit back to the maze. This will be used as another form of dead end, but if they fail to get to the exit quickly enough the spike traps in the room will go off (having been activated by falling onto the pressure plate). The power of the traps could decrease in a radius from the plate, so that almost getting there results in merely a wound. Other options for the trap room will of course include flooding from reservoirs of specific volume with a recycling drain hooked to a liquid pressure plate.
D Yet another option involves a pressure plate next to a fortification with a creature behind it with no path to the enemy (so it won't attack until the plate is triggered). Once the plate is triggered, the exit  to the pillbox is opened and the creature, now with a path to the enemy, begins making ranged attacks and/or pathing. Before it reaches the exit to its pillbox, another pressure plate closes it. From what I have read, creatures won't attack without a path.

I could go on, including having levels which enemies can fall down into, taking them backwards one level from their exit. Also useful are cave-ins and recapture traps to be dropped onto. Even traps releasing dwarves and creatures directly on the enemy would be awesome. With a DF logic computer, I should be able to reset the maze with one input.

Of course there are much less interesting things that can be done such as a level of doors on repeaters which create and erase paths through weapon traps or repeating spikes, or repeating drawbridges opening and closing (smash, smash, smash :-) ), with the exit from this maze of death leading back to the main labyrinth.

4) Magma logic: Possible, in place of water on maps without infinite supplies? I am recycling and storing rain right now on my experimental map, a nice technical challenge on a map with no river. However it has a magma pipe and SoFs, of course. The issue is that any water logic computers or repeaters will eat water 7 at a time, and I'd like to do some magma molding later with it (after I create an infinite wind-less power plant).

5 What questions do you have, and wonderful ideas to contribute?
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sir labreck

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Re: Employing Mechanics in DF (mazes, computing, repeaters, etc)
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2009, 12:10:13 am »

My head hurt, lol, hope someone will answers all this question, the logical computing, I'm don't have test yet, but that seem a little to hazardous for the moment. For labyrinth, that seem logic what you have said. But I don't understand the glasses wall. Do enemy actually see by clear glasses wall?

For the rest, I hope someone else could answer, that interesting for sure.
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The Architect

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Re: Employing Mechanics in DF (mazes, computing, repeaters, etc)
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2009, 12:24:25 am »

Creatures can see through windows, which act just like walls except that they are constructed (like statues). They are indestructible, etc, just like walls.
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Kardos

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Re: Employing Mechanics in DF (mazes, computing, repeaters, etc)
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2009, 12:50:39 am »

People have made logic gate systems in DF before.  I believe one guy made a system that counted up from 0, and gave you a display using water or magma, not sure which.  Unfortunatly I don't know where a link or save might be found.
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Shinziril

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Re: Employing Mechanics in DF (mazes, computing, repeaters, etc)
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2009, 01:10:31 am »

Kanddak is the current Dwarven Doctor of Fluid Logic (PhD).  See his designs for an eight bit ripple-carry adder and seven segment display (the seven-segment display's down a bit), or the more recent fully-automated magma deathrap.

I am also working on an adressable random access memory system.  I've pretty much got it, actually; all I have to do is work out an automation for the READ / WRITE signals (you have to wait a bit, to ensure things fill or drain properly, which currently has to be done by hand). 
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dragon0421

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Re: Employing Mechanics in DF (mazes, computing, repeaters, etc)
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2009, 01:14:19 am »

Quote
1) Can a waterwheel be arranged to run off an artificial waterfall, resulting in the normal 100 power (which would also allow it to be pumped back to the source, with your power gain growing the more z-levels you drop it through waterfalls without it hitting a reservoir). And/or: will arranging it so that an artificial water supply flows under a waterwheel before dropping again result in power?

I don't think you can put a waterwheel in the waterfall itself, but you can put it just before or after it. I haven't tested this though.

I DO know that power from waterwheels is not realistic. No laws of thermodynamics here. You can build perpetual motion machines that generate excess power. You can easily pump your water back up to the top of the waterfall and then some.
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Scy

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Re: Employing Mechanics in DF (mazes, computing, repeaters, etc)
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2009, 01:15:29 am »

1 - Yes, perpetual motion machines exist. See http://dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/Waterwheel#Perpetual_motion

2 - I've made a 3-bit MUX and DeMUX before, but it didn't really accomplish anything useful.

I don't have an answer to the rest of your questions, but the labyrinth idea of shifting walls sounds pretty neat. In order to have the doors be able to stay open and closed, you would have  to have a toggle for each one: http://dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/User:SL/Logic_Gates#Memory
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The Architect

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Re: Employing Mechanics in DF (mazes, computing, repeaters, etc)
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2009, 06:40:27 am »

It's going to be one hell of a headache (the computer to run it) exacerbated by a lack of a river/brook.

However, I think the concept is sound. At the worst I'll have to forgo the automated reset and manually reset it.

Not many people interested in the wild world of DF mechanics, eh?
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Sizik

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Re: Employing Mechanics in DF (mazes, computing, repeaters, etc)
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2009, 10:47:37 am »

Reading this post gave me an idea of how a computer can be used for a practical purpose. You build a long single-tile hallway for nvaders to come through, and put a pressure plate at the beginning. The pressure plate is hooked up to a counter, which triggers the bridges when it reaches a certain number (set using a series of levers, so it can change for each siege)
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Re: Employing Mechanics in DF (mazes, computing, repeaters, etc)
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2009, 11:13:27 am »

All the forts I've played have been examples of how mechanics go wrong in DF.
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The Architect

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Re: Employing Mechanics in DF (mazes, computing, repeaters, etc)
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2009, 01:51:52 pm »

That idea with the pressure plates is an excellent one, however we're limited by the delay in all mechanical DF devices. The only ones that doesn't have a retarding delay (not retarded, though it's that too) are cage traps and supports. That is what makes DF mechanics so very difficult to work with.

Now, if Toady gave us control, say allowing us to set the delay in # of frames, we could do amazing things.
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Sir Finkus

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Re: Employing Mechanics in DF (mazes, computing, repeaters, etc)
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2009, 02:49:30 pm »

That idea with the pressure plates is an excellent one, however we're limited by the delay in all mechanical DF devices. The only ones that doesn't have a retarding delay (not retarded, though it's that too) are cage traps and supports. That is what makes DF mechanics so very difficult to work with.

Now, if Toady gave us control, say allowing us to set the delay in # of frames, we could do amazing things.

Couldn't you just program in delays in increments of 100 by chaining together bits so they take longer?  For instance, stepping on the pressure plate doesn't immediately close the bridge, instead it opens a floodgate into a 1x1 room with a pressure plate in it which activates the bridge, essentially giving you a delay of 200 frames.  It seems you could make just about anything using these delays.

Nexii Malthus

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Re: Employing Mechanics in DF (mazes, computing, repeaters, etc)
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2009, 03:07:51 pm »

What are all the mechanical instants? Grates? Bars? Doors? Hatchcovers?

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Re: Employing Mechanics in DF (mazes, computing, repeaters, etc)
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2009, 03:30:29 pm »

It's a Sportacus! FLEE THE MINES!

On a serious note, I've noticed that delays are random and maybe based on mechanisms' quality thus it's almost impossible to make real timing.
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Re: Employing Mechanics in DF (mazes, computing, repeaters, etc)
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2009, 04:26:00 pm »

Exactly. Relaying the delays so that operations take ~200 frames doesn't help me in the slightest.

Anyone got any mech projects they want to show off?
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