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Author Topic: Dwarf Blind for no known reason?  (Read 3790 times)

Canadark

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Re: Dwarf Blind for no known reason?
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2009, 09:33:19 pm »

Give him a crossbow and set him to shoot at an archery range target. I've heard its hilarious.
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The Architect

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Re: Dwarf Blind for no known reason?
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2009, 09:44:04 pm »

That's quite clever. However, I find it to be better to simply play with it.

It's very easy to excuse as game extra depth, for instance he had a favorite lead mug or he has sunstroke. I think I'd rather deal with it than cheat out of it.
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They Got Leader

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Re: Dwarf Blind for no known reason?
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2009, 10:02:33 pm »

Understandable. I only looked it up and suggest it because for some people, thats what they want. I admit to having done it when all of my military injured their spines during sparring. I was really frustrated, 20 dwarves down the drain...
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The Architect

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Re: Dwarf Blind for no known reason?
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2009, 10:54:16 pm »

There is an easy solution for that. Don't spar wrestling first, and don't spar without iron or better.
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Supermikhail

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Re: Dwarf Blind for no known reason?
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2009, 05:32:02 am »

Wha?... I always thought that to spar wrestling first is the way... Maybe I saw it somewhere. Or maybe it's just intuitive... No, actually, a couple of years ago I went to historical fencing and maybe that's where I got that idea from... Anyway, what is the real way to train your warriordwarves in Dwarf Fortress?
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Amalgam

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Re: Dwarf Blind for no known reason?
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2009, 07:51:04 am »

Wha?... I always thought that to spar wrestling first is the way... Maybe I saw it somewhere. Or maybe it's just intuitive... No, actually, a couple of years ago I went to historical fencing and maybe that's where I got that idea from... Anyway, what is the real way to train your warriordwarves in Dwarf Fortress?
Wrestling is always the best to train first since it teaches your dwarves how to dodge effectively, thus getting hit less and not getting hit as hard, and suffering fewer injuries, as well as building agility and toughness which are important defensive attributes. The injuries they'll get while training wrestling can't really be helped, except perhaps by giving them armor and making sure you don't have elites and fresh recruits training together.

Quote from: The wiki
Note: The champions are under no obligation to not crush your windpipe with a single blow. This is not a karate class, this is a bunch of dwarves punching each other until they learn not to be punched. You do not get a fancy rainbow of belts, and you are not guaranteed to survive. But you will learn to roundhouse kick, insofar as a dwarf can roundhouse kick.
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The Architect

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Re: Dwarf Blind for no known reason?
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2009, 09:18:29 pm »

You're entirely wrong. The solution to that is not to be an idiot and put champions off duty while your rookies are off duty. The wiki is pretty bad on combat in general, in fact. It even lists swords and axes as being equal in combat!

Wrestling causes frequent injuries, especially if dwarves are not trained in armor use. They break bones, crush windpipes, crack spines (this last is extremely common and ruins all subsequent sparring). However, if you give them crappy weapons and decent armor, it's almost literally impossible for dwarves of the same experience and attribute levels to hurt each other (besides gray wounds). The point is not that they dodge the weapons, because even a champion will sometimes be hit. The point is that they don't get hurt when they DO get hit.

The second excellent reason for giving dwarves weapon training first (and only if you have wooden/silver weapons, or at most no-quality copper) is that they are more effective when using weapons against crowds and when outnumbered, and they can still do real damage to creatures larger than themselves when using weapons. If you look up Toady's comments on combat, you'll notice that size is the most important element of wrestling combat.

The third is that wrestling causes armor training to lag behind permanently. Also, weapons skills give more attribute boni per level gain. So even though wrestling trains faster, it's less useful for building soldiers. If you want a balanced end product, wrestling is the last thing you train (it will almost be legendary by the time you max weapons anyway).

The biggest part of sparring is not to put dwarves with very different attribute levels or experience levels off duty at the same time.

Another important consideration is effectiveness in battle: a weapons soldier with +5 training in weapons will slaughter even a full ambush squad of goblins (almost always if using swords; they're overpowered at that level, but any weapon will do), while a wrestler will have to fight each goblin one at a time (causing exhaustion, allowing him to be mobbed, etc.).
And it is 10x as important if fighting a larger opponent (such as with orc mod), as size is the most important factor of wrestling combat.

Finally, giving a weapon to someone with a base of 0 (out of the possible 15) is a good way to make a soldier useless. And if you really want someone to survive melee with more than one opponent, they need a weapon. So, you should train weapons to a minimum of 5 or so before going wrestling, then max wrestling, if you want the most effective early soldier. You can send them into combat and expect excellent results with around level 5 weapons training. If you want to max his/her capability in the long run, you'll max weapons before going for wrestling. There won't be much training left to hit legendary wrestling then anyway. And unlike your soldiers that max wrestling first then weapons, they'll have legendary + armor and shield proficiency.
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Jim Groovester

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Re: Dwarf Blind for no known reason?
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2009, 01:31:07 pm »

Blind marksdwarves aren't as ineffective as you might think.

You see, martial trances allows dwarves to see, and not just for the purposes of combat. So, provided Lightning the Blind Marksdwarf gets a trance, he'll be as effective as any other marksdwarf.

That said, I haven't had the chance to train a blind marksdwarf on my own. But you have the opportunity, so you should try it and then tell us how well or poorly it works.
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Derakon

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Re: Dwarf Blind for no known reason?
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2009, 01:38:41 pm »

I don't know what game you've been playing, Architect, but I only see my soldiers get injured when I switch to weapon training. And I don't spend much effort on armoring my soldiers, either; basically, the first armor that my Proficient armorsmith (who I started the fort with) pumps out, they get. Oftentimes they start their wrestling before getting anything except a shield, in fact.

When they actually have to face real opponents, I just toss whatever weapons I have into their hands and throw them out the door. They seem to do fine. Skill with weapons is useful for killing things faster, no doubt, but your dwarves will almost always get stuck wrestling at some point in combat (typically because their weapon is stuck or they've been grabbed by the opponent), and until they can stop wrestling, their weapons are useless.
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The Architect

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Re: Dwarf Blind for no known reason?
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2009, 02:51:37 pm »

They get plenty of wrestling training from weapons training. Because as you stated, they'll be wrestling sometimes in combat. They mimic combat when training.

Anyway, "I don't know what game you've been playing" seems like an odd comment to make and then not back it up. You just stated our own training regimen and didn't refute any of the facts and opinions that I posted. Of course if you give people real weapons and no armor they get hurt. Congratulations on your injured soldiers?
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Dwarf Fortress: where blunders never cease.
The sigs topic:
Oh man, this is truly sigworthy...
Oh man. This is truly sig-worthy.
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