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[Othob Rithol]

Okay people are getting hostile and nit-picky.

When two radically opposed camps argue over a point, a dev will usually NOT take the suggestions seriously. Therefore, it is most likely to actually have an effect if the two sides compromise and put forward a unified solution.

The heated debate seems to be three camps (chime in if you are a third made of more than one person)

Less Stone - Thinks we should be able to control the creation of stones because stones are a hinderance to Ease of Control and thus weakens the quality of Gameplay. Appears to thusfar be the majority.

More Stone - Thinks that stones add an a extra level of Difficulty and/or Realism. Appears thus far to be a minority.

Better Stone - Which I am a part of. Thinks Gameplay (in DF) involves both Difficulty and Realism, tempered with Ease of Control. Appears thus far to be a minority. Yes, the title is subjective, but I lack a better one (see!?!).

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Opposing Motions: (and groups):
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Every Tile should drop stone (More) - Do away with the current skill based system, even possibly going so far as to change dumping and add in unusable stone ("rubble"?)

Be able to turn off stone (Less) - Since hauling is screwy and stone everywhere makes an eyesore, blocks doors etc.

Dwarves should clean non-stone stockpiles of their stone (Better) thus freeing up the spaces for storage.

Have designations under stone visible (Better) so that we can actually see what has been designated for channeling.

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This suggestion, I think, would allow all three camps to start towards a unified solution:

quote:Originally posted by Derakon:
<STRONG>Actually, one possibility would be to simply have a "toggle stone" designation like we currently have "toggle engravings". Most of the time you don't really care where stone outside of your stockpiles is, so why bother showing it? It should still default to "display" so you can tell if you're managing to successfully extract <foo> from the wall as you mine, but you'd be able to turn it off for the parts of your fortress that you want to look nice.</STRONG>

Mentioned Threads for reference: http://www.bay12games.com/cgi-local/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=5&t=002980

Relevent Dev Notes mentioned: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_req_51-100.html

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I for one don't have a big issue with stone as a ]diffilculty : I run 4x Legendary Stoneworkers in every fort and usually have roaming masonry and mechanics shops.

However, is see the lack of Realism in the current system as lesser skilled miners generate less stone. I utilize this myself by having my legendary mining crew (which is only turned on to mine good stuff) and then use all my useless dwarves as a the "tunnellers" that carve out the fort.

Switching back and forth (and culling the Proficient+ dwarves out of the tunnelers) is definitely a detraction from Ease of Control and Gameplay.

[Cosmonot]

Dwarves are supposed to make magnificent, expansive mountain halls, like how Moria was shown in the film version of the Lord of the Rings. There's no plausible way to deal with the  utterly ridiculous amount of junk rock that would be generated in mining out that much space so I don't see why the issue should be addressed realistically at all.

[Kogan Loloklam]

quote:Originally posted by Cosmonot:
<STRONG>Dwarves are supposed to make magnificent, expansive mountain halls, like how Moria was shown in the film version of the Lord of the Rings. There's no plausible way to deal with the  utterly ridiculous amount of junk rock that would be generated in mining out that much space so I don't see why the issue should be addressed realistically at all.</STRONG>

You don't get it. Moria was once a single mountain in a vast plain. The junk rock is where the rest of the range comes from  

[Greiger]

I like stone and I do believe that all digging should create (some) stone.  But until a better way to deal with it comes up(I'm partial to mine carts and waterwheel powered hauling elevators) I figure we need some kind of way to control how much stone is created by mining.

A toggle in the manager settings would be good.  You could tell your miners to try and minimize the created non economic stone.  For a novice or dabbler this wouldn't have much of an effect, they would create a stone for almost every mined non-economic tile.  For a legendary though they would rarely create stone.(maybe the current dabbler rate) The fluff could be that they hit the rock with such skill and power that they simply obliterate most of it.

If you suddenly need stone for a building project you can just turn the toggle back off and every tile will make stone again.

This would also have an effect of giving you stone when you actually need it thanks to low skill miners, but once yer fortress is established you won't be accidentally creating very much useless stone.  But you still have the option to make some if you end up needing it.

[Sylverone]

quote:I'm partial to mine carts and waterwheel powered hauling elevators

Exactly. Things like this could make dealing with stone more efficient, would add to realism, and also improve the game world. Probably the biggest problem at the moment is the fact that every stone = one hauling task. Once the dwarves have carts or something to carry stone around in, and faster ways of moving around, stone management should become far less annoying.

Being able to change the amount of stone dropped would be a quick-fix in the meantime, and being able to toggle stone display on and off in-game would make certain tasks easier.

My idea (pardon me if something similar has been mentioned):
Maybe stone should need to be designated for hauling? That way the dwarves would only move stone that needs moved. Of course there would still be the option to have it designated by default when it appears. If that as the case, then you could just un-designate stone that was low-priority and wasn't in the way.

Greiger's idea could work as a fix for a while. That would give player's that don't care for the current system the option to limit stone production, while not forcing it on the players that don't mind things much as they are.

Whatever the case, I trust Toady will find a way that works. He's done well thus far.

[ March 18, 2008: Message edited by: Sylverone ]

[Kogan Loloklam]

It would be nice if raw stone fit in bins too. A large storage room with tons of bins holds hundreds of blocks, but only tens of stones. That means you have to designate stone for dumping, using refuse hauling, to clean your fortress. This becomes a problem if you are attempting to only transport stone out of certain areas and are trying to burn hundreds of left socks in your lava-filled garbage dump at the same time.

[Drunken]

I agree with Othob Rithol, there are definitely compromises that can be reached. I didn't mean to be rude about anyone elses opinion, I guess I just do it sometimes without thinking. One of the great things about this game is that you can usually choose your own difficulty to suit yourself. With this in mind I think the best compromise is just that, either as an init setting or an orders setting: Stone-simple or Stone-Realistic. Then everyone can be happy. Stone simple may also offer a considerable fps increase on bigger forts. I think we can also all agree that better ways of dealing with stone would be great, carts/wagons/elevators that can haul multiple units at a time have been mentioned several times. Also the idea of being able to create a proper landfill once you have all the stuff hauled.

I still would dearly love for the Stone-Realistic setting to be massively stone heavy, including useless rubble and the necessity of moving all stone out before you can do ANYTHING in that space. But I am not suggesting everyone should have to deal with this just because I want it. Many people would simply quit playing if this were the case, and that would be bad all round.

[Othob Rithol]

I'm sure you are all aware (and probalby posting in) the concurrent discussion found here
http://www.bay12games.com/cgi-local/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=5&t=003023

I'd suggest we migrate this conversation there so this thread can stay on topic (as a compilation of many issues) or die (since it is already off topic in a vague way)

[Draco18s]

I'm for Better Stone, but I don't like the toggle on-off "see stone."  Better Stone in my opinion is that you can decide whether you want your miners to Quarry the stone or to Tunnel it.  Tunnel works like current dabbler, pummeling the stone into oblivion and Quarrying works like the higher skill levels.  Changes because of skill level would be the speed at which the dwarf accomplishes his task: quarrying at high skill would be like legendary, tunneling at high skill would be like legendary, but inverse the drop rate.  Tunneling would almost never produce usable stone.

Pause & center when designations move from economic to non and vice versa (so you don't tunnel the useful stuff and don't quarry the useless).

[False Keraptis]

Mark me down for the More Stone Party, please.  I don't care for the name, since I'm actually in favor of the same amount of stone we have now, but a lot of movements have been named by their detractors.

With easier, less-RPI-inducing wall and floor designation, it'll be easy to use all of it by building stuff.

[False Keraptis]

Oh yeah, I almost forgot.  Biggest problem?  RPI-inducing wall and floor designation.  I can't get enough of making ridiculous surface structures, but it's driving me batty.

[I3erent]

quote:Originally posted by Derakon:
<STRONG>Actually, one possibility would be to simply have a "toggle stone" designation like we currently have "toggle engravings". Most of the time you don't really care where stone outside of your stockpiles is, so why bother showing it? It should still default to "display" so you can tell if you're managing to successfully extract <foo> from the wall as you mine, but you'd be able to turn it off for the parts of your fortress that you want to look nice.</STRONG>

I like this!!!!

[Kagus]

Better stone.  I don't care if there's a massive amount of stone in my fortress, so long as I can do something with it or get it out of the way efficiently.  Quarrying/tunneling sounds nice, too.

As for now, I just build lots and lots of catapults.  Trains siege engineers/operators for ballistae, and also removes excess stone.  Also gives soap makers something to do.

[Othob Rithol]

quote:Originally posted by False Keraptis:
<STRONG>Mark me down for the More Stone Party, please.  I don't care for the name, since I'm actually in favor of the same amount of stone we have now, but a lot of movements have been named by their detractors.</STRONG>

I wouldn't call me quite a detractor   Like you I just picked a side when making the outline. Also like you I am pretty happy with how things are, atleast when the pop gets up to about 100 and I have enough dearves to do the hauling, building, and souvenir making (I edited my own tileset from a few others, adding a cup with DF on it...looks great).

I picked the More/Less because it is often easier to identify groups by the extremes even if they really don't match the ideal (like in the US we have liberals that like to not actually get around to changing anything, and conservatives that use reckless and risky policies).

The great thing about the toggle on/off for stone visibility is exactly that: it's a toggle. I would never use the current sieges on/off toggle (where'd I get all my iron?!?) but I am happy it is there for peeps that don't like having a military. The best thing about DF is just how much of a sandbox it is.

[Silverionmox]

quote:Originally posted by Draco18s:
<STRONG>

This is why dwarves don't go to the bathroom.

[ March 18, 2008: Message edited by: Draco18s ]</STRONG>

I'm anxiously awaiting the day that they do, and we'll have a use to engineer flush toilets for.