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Author Topic: Is Communism Dead?  (Read 9917 times)

Krash

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Re: Is Communism Dead?
« Reply #105 on: November 16, 2009, 08:43:10 pm »

Socialism gives the benefits of capitalism but reduces the bad stuff. I love socialism.

Maybe you should pay a visit to Sweden then.  Horribly inefficient, bloated public sector and the world's second highest tax, yet no better than many far less taxed countries.  We used to have fantastic growth and development, but as socialism took root from the 50s to the 70s, everything slowed down to a crawl.  The only thing keeping us afloat is our world class private sector.

So too much socialism is definitely not a nice thing.


As for those of you criticizing WallMart, I can only recommend the episode of Bullshit where many of the "greedy and evil" claims are looked at in more details.  Did you know that 450 000 Chinese can thank the company for a job (which though not high pay is a lot better than being unemployed in China, i assure you)?  That the savings that people who shop there increase their buying power and thus actually contribute to the creation of jobs (by being able to afford more other things).
« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 08:57:13 pm by Krash »
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MyLittlePonyBuiltMyHotRod, this is your first warning. I would like to direct you to read our forum's FAQ and posting guidelines before posting again. Specifically we don't use swear words here, and your picture of Stalin riding a Year3 Limited Edition Starflower inside a German concentration camp was both upsetting and historically inaccurate.

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Re: Is Communism Dead?
« Reply #106 on: November 16, 2009, 09:47:18 pm »

I complained about their malicious and immoral business practices, intentionally driving their own suppliers out of business so that they can provide a cheap, low-quality overpriced item to the consumer.

Not their ability to practice free enterprise. I despise tariffs, among other things. They have the right to buy from China if they want, and yes the US is the reason why China is doing so well. They feed off of our free enterprise. But none of this excuses some of their business practices.
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Krash

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Re: Is Communism Dead?
« Reply #107 on: November 17, 2009, 03:01:56 am »

I complained about their malicious and immoral business practices, intentionally driving their own suppliers out of business so that they can provide a cheap, low-quality overpriced item to the consumer.

You'll have to be more specific: what malicious and immoral business practices?  If you mean not accepting unionised people then I can sortof agree; but remembering the clusterfuck that the auto industry unions inflicted on the American auto industry I'm not shedding any tears.  I'd add also that Wall Mart is a huge employer of handicapped people, which though it is motivated by paying less brings the benefit of them getting a job which they probably wouldn't otherwise.  Bad job > No job (unless you live in Sweden :))

If they drive their suppliers out of business, where do they get their products in the first place?  That makes no sense.  They have to get their stuff from somewhere.  I'm gonna assume here that you mean that they're squeezing the suppliers' margin.  And if they are, this means that you get the products cheaper, thus become increase you purchasing power, which is good as I explainer above.  Actually this makes for more jobs overall. 

Also, if the consumer is willing to pay, the product's not overpriced.  That's economics 1oh1.



You know, maybe we should spin this off into a Hate/Love Wall Mart thread - seems like I'm derailing the discussion from it's original subject.   ;)
« Last Edit: November 17, 2009, 03:10:22 am by Krash »
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RAM

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Re: Is Communism Dead?
« Reply #108 on: November 17, 2009, 03:15:25 am »

The consumer is willing to go into debt in order to eat, before they are willing to find a different way of getting their food. Consumers are far to pressured and/or stupid for their willingness to pay to be any indicator of anything. Large companies can put a great deal of research into finding out how much they can squeeze their suppliers and have enough surviving suppliers that they can either keep squeezing them or buy them out. They are not so motivated to find out if they are going to destroy the economy by overconcentrating wealth...
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Krash

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Re: Is Communism Dead?
« Reply #109 on: November 17, 2009, 05:03:19 am »

Broke up your post since it's easier to answer that way.  Hope you don't mind  :)

The consumer is willing to go into debt in order to eat, before they are willing to find a different way of getting their food.

???  I thought people were fanatical bargain hunters, to the point of ridicule.  I know plenty of people who go to great effort to save 3% at the bigger mart.  (This is in Sweden, but I'll take a leap of faith and assume this is the case in the US as well.)

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Consumers are far to pressured and/or stupid for their willingness to pay to be any indicator of anything.

True, some people will shell out money for some truly crazy shit, but hey, it's their choice.  You can hardly blame big business for that.  Also I disagree that consumers are stupid - I mean some are (I know a few :)), but most can think p rationally most of the time.

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Large companies can put a great deal of research into finding out how much they can squeeze their suppliers and have enough surviving suppliers that they can either keep squeezing them or buy them out.

There are plenty of cases where the opposite is true.  I suggest a stint into economics; the supplier/supplied relationship is actually very interesting.  Companies which nurture their suppliers do far better than those who do not, and Wall Mart is more of an exception than the rule.  Also, the trend has been towards more divided/specialised companies, not behemoths controlling the entire supply chain.  It's far more profitable and less unwieldy.

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They are not so motivated to find out if they are going to destroy the economy by overconcentrating wealth...

Statistically, the poorest 10% have a bigger slice of the cake (I think 2.5%, but don't quote me on that) in developed nations than in both third world and developing nations.  So I don't think we're on a wealth concentrating, economy destroying course at the moment.

Also, how does concentrating wealth (at least reasonably) destroy the economy?  Who do you think make the big investments in society today?  The poor?  As long as the lowest economical percentile can afford basic goods (compare US "poor" to third world and developing world poor), some concentration of wealth is nothing bad.  I'll concede that getting beyond that might not be too great though - but as long as everyone is given a chance at proving themselves, through entrepreneurship and education, I don't see anything wrong with this.
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Re: Is Communism Dead?
« Reply #110 on: November 17, 2009, 07:21:09 am »

I complained about their malicious and immoral business practices, intentionally driving their own suppliers out of business so that they can provide a cheap, low-quality overpriced item to the consumer.

You'll have to be more specific: what malicious and immoral business practices?  If you mean not accepting unionised people then I can sortof agree; but remembering the clusterfuck that the auto industry unions inflicted on the American auto industry I'm not shedding any tears.  I'd add also that Wall Mart is a huge employer of handicapped people, which though it is motivated by paying less brings the benefit of them getting a job which they probably wouldn't otherwise.  Bad job > No job (unless you live in Sweden :))

If they drive their suppliers out of business, where do they get their products in the first place?  That makes no sense.  They have to get their stuff from somewhere.  I'm gonna assume here that you mean that they're squeezing the suppliers' margin.  And if they are, this means that you get the products cheaper, thus become increase you purchasing power, which is good as I explainer above.  Actually this makes for more jobs overall. 

Also, if the consumer is willing to pay, the product's not overpriced.  That's economics 1oh1.



You know, maybe we should spin this off into a Hate/Love Wall Mart thread - seems like I'm derailing the discussion from it's original subject.   ;)

I agree with you on the unions. That is an instance of socialism gone bad (although that's pretty much the only way socialism has ever gone in the long run). Socialistic economies end up being parasitic. As do elements of applied socialism (such as corrupt unions). It's just human nature that when you aren't working for yourself, you won't work. Not to say that it can't be overcome, it just isn't something you can bet your economy against and hope to win.

That said, before continuing you need to go back and read the rest of the topic. You aren't the one derailing this topic, I am, Lego Lord having been the one who brought up Walmart. The excuse for the change of topic has been given. And if you read the earlier posts you won't have trouble understanding what I'm talking about.

I'm just not going to go back and dig them up again, so rather than demanding explanations you'll have to go read the thread. I'm referring to specific strategies currently utilized by Wmart that I have already described.
My posts have constantly been in support of a free market, but not the "capitalistic" business approach, which is to put monetary gain before all else. A free market must be tempered by morality, and where that fails, law. And no, I'm not talking about squeezing suppliers for a fair profit margin; I mean exactly what I said. Please read back. Pardon me for abruptness, but you ought to at least read the thread before jumping in.
There is a market price for items, which competition (ie free enterprise) keeps reasonable. An immoral abuse of the system to create and maintain a monopoly (other than a monopoly of convenience) violates free enterprise just as much as a government mandate can. It gives whomever is monopolizing the market the power to set whatever price they please. Walmart's business practices (as described previously) are simply downright immoral, and are also aimed at creating such a monopoly.

If you really, really want to get into it, look at the way Walmart scums the profits from all kinds of privately developed and patented products by creating "Great Value" brands. They control the point of distribution AND the ability to set their own artificial market price, which they abuse to a high degree. That's as much backtracking as I'm willing to do.

Many thanks to Krash for debunking RAM's string of strange and seemingly unresearched comments.
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RAM

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Re: Is Communism Dead?
« Reply #111 on: November 17, 2009, 07:25:10 am »

Overconcentrated wealth destroys the economy by eliminating the ability of components of that economy to exist within it. And people don't consider the larger implications of their actions. It happens, but wasting resources determining the sustainability of your actions just isn't competitive when there are more effective options...
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Nadaka

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Re: Is Communism Dead?
« Reply #112 on: November 17, 2009, 08:42:16 am »

I complained about their malicious and immoral business practices, intentionally driving their own suppliers out of business so that they can provide a cheap, low-quality overpriced item to the consumer.

You'll have to be more specific: what malicious and immoral business practices?  If you mean not accepting unionised people then I can sortof agree; but remembering the clusterfuck that the auto industry unions inflicted on the American auto industry I'm not shedding any tears.  I'd add also that Wall Mart is a huge employer of handicapped people, which though it is motivated by paying less brings the benefit of them getting a job which they probably wouldn't otherwise.  Bad job > No job (unless you live in Sweden :))

If they drive their suppliers out of business, where do they get their products in the first place?  That makes no sense.  They have to get their stuff from somewhere.  I'm gonna assume here that you mean that they're squeezing the suppliers' margin.  And if they are, this means that you get the products cheaper, thus become increase you purchasing power, which is good as I explainer above.  Actually this makes for more jobs overall. 

Also, if the consumer is willing to pay, the product's not overpriced.  That's economics 1oh1.



You know, maybe we should spin this off into a Hate/Love Wall Mart thread - seems like I'm derailing the discussion from it's original subject.   ;)

Handicapped employees are easier to abuse than fully functional people.  As a former employee at wall mart, I can honestly say that they are one of the most deceptive, malicious and abusive employers around. Fortunately I have graduated and have a real job now. They are a perfect example of the necrotic destructive side of unrestrained capitalism.
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Krash

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Re: Is Communism Dead?
« Reply #113 on: November 17, 2009, 09:15:30 am »

I'm just not going to go back and dig them up again, so rather than demanding explanations you'll have to go read the thread. I'm referring to specific strategies currently utilized by Wmart that I have already described. 

I've read the thread before posting.  Maybe I just missed them  :-[ 

Either way I'm not saying WallMart is a saint, but it's "evils" are greatly exagerated
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Nadaka

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Re: Is Communism Dead?
« Reply #114 on: November 17, 2009, 09:45:05 am »

I'm just not going to go back and dig them up again, so rather than demanding explanations you'll have to go read the thread. I'm referring to specific strategies currently utilized by Wmart that I have already described. 

I've read the thread before posting.  Maybe I just missed them  :-[ 

Either way I'm not saying WallMart is a saint, but it's "evils" are greatly exagerated

From my experience working at Wall Mart for over 6 years, I would say the evils are greatly underplayed.
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LegoLord

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Re: Is Communism Dead?
« Reply #115 on: November 17, 2009, 06:38:00 pm »

I had an aunt that worked at a Walmart distribution center.  There was no AC there.  If you take a break to keep yourself from passing out from overheating, you get in trouble for not working.  If you pass out from over heating, you get in the same amount of trouble for letting yourself get to that point.  They have as much care for their employees as that distribution center had AC.
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HAMMERMILL

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Re: Is Communism Dead?
« Reply #116 on: November 18, 2009, 04:59:57 am »

Most work in any distribution center or big warehouse is going to be rough, Wal-Mart or not. I had a friend that worked in a Fed-Ex center and passed out from exhaustion working there. People mail absurd things like 150 pound sections of engine blocks through the mail and the workers have to pull them off conveyor belts by hand for 8 hours a day.

For the original question, I'd say communism is at least a passe ideology, or on its way out. Look at revolutionary communist groups like the FARC, which have basically just degenerated into capitalist drug cartels. Not to mention states like China and Veitnam are not even trying to pretend to be traditional communist states anymore.

Only true communist state anymore might be North Korea, which is more of a psychotic dictatorship then anything Karl Marx or Lenin would have envisioned.

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Maggarg - Eater of chicke

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Re: Is Communism Dead?
« Reply #117 on: November 18, 2009, 01:23:41 pm »

North Korea is pretty much dead. The cities are full of empty office blocks, the countryside full of people trying to live off bark and a palace where a mad, morbid government sees a world full of conspiracy against their communist superstate.
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Re: Is Communism Dead?
« Reply #118 on: November 18, 2009, 03:24:04 pm »

Handicapped employees are easier to abuse than fully functional people.  As a former employee at wall mart, I can honestly say that they are one of the most deceptive, malicious and abusive employers around. Fortunately I have graduated and have a real job now. They are a perfect example of the necrotic destructive side of unrestrained capitalism.

If you don't want to work there, then quit. It's as simple as that. No one can make you stay at your job.
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Re: Is Communism Dead?
« Reply #119 on: November 18, 2009, 03:28:59 pm »

Handicapped employees are easier to abuse than fully functional people.  As a former employee at wall mart, I can honestly say that they are one of the most deceptive, malicious and abusive employers around. Fortunately I have graduated and have a real job now. They are a perfect example of the necrotic destructive side of unrestrained capitalism.

If you don't want to work there, then quit. It's as simple as that. No one can make you stay at your job.
The bills can make you stay.
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