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Author Topic: Is Communism Dead?  (Read 9927 times)

Lord Dakoth

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Re: Is Communism Dead?
« Reply #60 on: November 14, 2009, 10:07:08 pm »

However, even free enterprise must be tempered by morality, or it will be abused by individuals and companies such as Walmart.

Agreed. Morality should take precedence before all else.
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LegoLord

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Re: Is Communism Dead?
« Reply #61 on: November 14, 2009, 10:46:37 pm »

Of course that doesn't always help, mainly when lowering the price is done in excess.  One good example is Wal-Mart.  They pull every dirty trick they can to get their prices low and still make a profit.  Minimum wage, buying as much from cheap overseas sources as they can, holding back job applications to maintain a state of being understaffed, and thus having an excuse to ask employees to work unpaid or underpaid overtime, giving workers poor work conditions (my aunt had to deal with that at a Wal-Mart distribution center).

Then when Wal-mart moves into a new area, it's like dropping a bomb on the local specialty businesses.  A lot will go out of business since everyone is starting to go to Wal-Mart.  But the Wal-Mart is only taking in a few employees.  So what do the unemployed do?  Get some other bad job if they aren't lucky enough to get one at Wal-Mart.  The saddest part is that these people hurt by Wal-Mart can really only shop there, on account of having so little income.

So what do you suggest we do? It's not the company's goal to give out good jobs, it's to make money. If you don't like you job, you can quit.

And I ask you, why does everyone start going to Wal-Mart instead of the local businesses? I would propose that this is because Wal-Mart supplies better products at lower prices. People just wouldn't go there if they got shit service.
Actually, most people who have a problem with being a Wal-Mart employee can't quit.  It's all they have.  If they quit, they'd be jobless, which would just leave them worse off than before.  As for why people shop at Wal-Mart?  Everyone is obsessed with saving money, to the point where the quality of the product doesn't matter.  They're normally cheap enough that it's not a problem when something bad happens (why this is a different story in other stores is because other stores don't screw over all their employees and suppliers).

Companies going out of business is also both a sign and trigger of recession, not a healthy economy.  Think about it:  several companies go out of business for every new Wal-Mart.  Wal-Mart cannot make up for the job loss - even without withholding job applications.  It's only one store.  So there's suddenly a big unemployment problem.  Since fewer people have a source of income, fewer have money to spend.  This means that there is a reduction in the flow of money, which is practically an alarm signaling "bad economy."  And of course, the natural reaction of people when the economy goes bad is to spend even less (even if they're well off), further contributing to the problem.

Having business contribute to a healthy economy is like getting football players to have fun with the game.  There's healthy competition, where they play by the rules and have fun, and then there's unhealthy competition, where they try to sneak around the rules, which always just makes things unpleasant.  Wal-Mart does the latter.

With this in mind, I don't see how one could agree with this:
However, even free enterprise must be tempered by morality, or it will be abused by individuals and companies such as Walmart.
and still defend the way Wal-Mart does business.
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The Architect

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Re: Is Communism Dead?
« Reply #62 on: November 14, 2009, 11:21:28 pm »

We're on the same page. Before anyone jumps on us about being off-topic, I'd like to point out that there is no real question about whether communism is dead. So there's no reason not to allow the thread to wander through economic and governmental questions as we see fit.

Does anyone see a theoretical solution to the problem? Walmart is like an addictive drug to the economy now; it has such a chunk of its markets that crippling it would very likely cripple the rest of the economy as well. As a supplier of vital products, a ripple effect seems inevitable.
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codezero

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Re: Is Communism Dead?
« Reply #63 on: November 14, 2009, 11:27:36 pm »

I thought this anti-communist rubbish died with the Vietnam war?

It'd be informing if there was a poll in this topic asking if you'd read Marx and Engels' manifesto. Perhaps you should clarify that you don't like communistic societies, rather than communism, which is as idealistic as any utopian vision.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 11:35:37 pm by codezero »
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LegoLord

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Re: Is Communism Dead?
« Reply #64 on: November 14, 2009, 11:38:53 pm »

I thought this anti-communist rubbish died with the vietnam war?
Not at all.  It exists even today, largely because of recent scares with North Korea and a few other smaller communist areas.  Anti-communist sentiments are mostly the result of fear.
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"Oh look there is a dragon my clothes might burn let me take them off and only wear steel plate."
And this is how tinned food was invented.
Alternately: The Brick Testament. It's a really fun look at what the bible would look like if interpreted literally. With Legos.
Just so I remember

Rooster

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Re: Is Communism Dead?
« Reply #65 on: November 14, 2009, 11:47:46 pm »

Oh please!
Of course that some ideals never die! And any ideals have their utopia.
I'm an anarchist and I feel kinda left out but whatever...
I think people have so much problems with communism is that it made lotsa people unhappy
Even Stalin had to take away from the poor and make everyone even poorer but it worked out somehow (just forget about the violence and poor country for a while)

I'm pretty sure that communism and socialism CAN and DO WORK just only for really small societies. Remember that ZSRR was gargantuan with huge population. Feeding everyone is Hard!
Capitalism does work right now, but just you wait for someone secretly screwing over the world behind everyone's back and we're fucked. I still can't believe USA was played by G.W. Bush like that. Even If there were good reasons to start a war, majority of people don't want it anymore, and guess what? It continues! Because it's good for the economy. Communism works where Capitalism can't and vice versa. There were some forms of government I would feel comfortable with and for example it's Greek direct democracy.
There was a discussion I started a long time ago about anarchism, and mostly I heard argument similar to ones here mainly: it's against nature. I don't agree. If it would be against nature then those ideals wouldn't even exist. The fact that I'm an anarchist means something. Nature never breaks it's laws. Think about it
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LegoLord

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Re: Is Communism Dead?
« Reply #66 on: November 14, 2009, 11:54:33 pm »

Human nature does not apply to individuals, such as those that might come up with the ideals.  Rather, it applies to groups of people.  It is human nature to screw things up, even if it won't be every member of a group screwing up the goal.

It also happens to be human nature to say one thing and then do another once you are actually in the situation you were talking about (i.e. "hindsight's 20/20").
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"Oh look there is a dragon my clothes might burn let me take them off and only wear steel plate."
And this is how tinned food was invented.
Alternately: The Brick Testament. It's a really fun look at what the bible would look like if interpreted literally. With Legos.
Just so I remember

Servant Corps

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Re: Is Communism Dead?
« Reply #67 on: November 15, 2009, 12:04:32 am »

I thought this anti-communist rubbish died with the Vietnam war?

I will be the first to admit that my anti-Communism is very...shallow. At the same time though, the United States currently devote itself to waging tons of rubbish political conflicts, and anti-Communism is at least rooted in the Cold War and in the many critiques of capitalism and imperialism. I think I would rather acknowledge that Communism is a real ideological threat to unrestrained Capitalism and pay more attention to it. After all, if Communism does work...erm...um...

And even in a true Communist utopia, it must be stated that one person's utopia is another person's dystopia.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2009, 12:07:52 am by Servant Corps »
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RAM

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Re: Is Communism Dead?
« Reply #68 on: November 15, 2009, 12:33:09 am »

Anarchy:
 Everyone is free to do what they choose and are able, in this situation people will compete, companies will form to consolidate power and will then either by aggressive marketing or military action seek dominance over other companies. Monopolies become universal and power becomes concentrated as much as is possible, the executives and soldiers become absurdly wealthy and the workers are given just enough to continue to work. As technology advances power can be further concentrated until there is one immortal CEO mounted in a giant mecha with absolute freedom over the rest of humanity.

Order:
 Everyone submits absolutely to fixed rules, people are allotted professions according to the rules, people are punished according to the rules, and there are rules in place to insure that nobody is ever in a position to threaten the rules. Personal expression is crushed in a distopian horror. But the trains run on time, the larder is full, medicine is free, and everyone has a place.

Capitalism was fun while it lasted, but we need to grow up in a hurry...
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Strife26

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Re: Is Communism Dead?
« Reply #69 on: November 15, 2009, 01:07:54 am »

Anarchy:
 Everyone is free to do what they choose and are able, in this situation people will compete, companies will form to consolidate power and will then either by aggressive marketing or military action seek dominance over other companies. Monopolies become universal and power becomes concentrated as much as is possible, the executives and soldiers become absurdly wealthy and the workers are given just enough to continue to work. As technology advances power can be further concentrated until there is one immortal CEO mounted in a giant mecha with absolute freedom over the rest of humanity.

Order:
 Everyone submits absolutely to fixed rules, people are allotted professions according to the rules, people are punished according to the rules, and there are rules in place to insure that nobody is ever in a position to threaten the rules. Personal expression is crushed in a distopian horror. But the trains run on time, the larder is full, medicine is free, and everyone has a place.

Capitalism was fun while it lasted, but we need to grow up in a hurry...

What does one replace capitalism with?


I accuse economic system arguments of getting in false dichotomy far too often. As far as I can see, both pure Capitalism (robber-barons to monopolies to privatized armies and fire departments) and Communism (has innate problems with efficiency and the need for a strong government which creates its own problems) don't work in the purest sense. A properly regulated capitalism seems to hold the best chance for continued non-collapse (because, everything eventually collapses).


I'm quite anti-communism, but I quite like communism. Whenever a country is communist, it (as far as our history goes) is always authoritarian as well. USSR. North Korea. Venezuela. China. Must I go on? Communism is an innately Utopian ideal. It only works if the phrase "From each according to ability, to each according to need" hold true. However, humans tend to be lazy bastards. We usually won't work as hard as possible for no reason. Capitalism helps prevent this, as accumulation of wealth provides a reason to work hard (want to get promoted to make more money/ don't want to get fired). In a communism though, this isn't as direct. If I go to my middle management job in the USSR and do the bare minimum, does that lessen the needs of my family? If we have two middle managers, one who works his ass off and one who doesn't, don't they both need a car? A house?


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codezero

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Re: Is Communism Dead?
« Reply #70 on: November 15, 2009, 03:18:22 am »

 You can't make the choice for someone else that they didn't freely choose to live the lifestyle they are.

Also, what's 'capitalism' but focusing on business over workers? China is richer than the US now probably, nearly all cultures are part of the global currency.

I should rescind my last post, 'cause I realise now that communism isn't any more idealistic than democracy, they're whatever the government is at the time of it calling itself one. It doesn't matter what gov. anyone is, it's the actions of the person(s) that matters.
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RAM

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Re: Is Communism Dead?
« Reply #71 on: November 15, 2009, 03:51:18 am »

Competition requires redundancy and is therefore horribly inefficient. There are many sources of motivation, one in which the punishment is the nullification of someone's skills seems uniquely unworthy. In a communal environment one should be aware of one's own activities and aware of their influence, at that point it should be plainly clear that a failure in one's own activities is detrimental to one's own environment. The lack of redundancy and unemployment should overcome any loss of motivation many many many times over.

Of course, humans are strange things, with their won unique traits, a totally communal environment would most probably be disastrous for mental health, people should, for the foreseeable future, have their own possessions, and their own authority, and their own pursuits, but these things can all occur beyond the scope of an economic system...
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codezero

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Re: Is Communism Dead?
« Reply #72 on: November 15, 2009, 07:33:58 am »

Yeah man I'm listening to the beatles right now and it's a head trip how fucking ripped off they get in tv ads. Albeit I blew all my money last night on the pokies lol.
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Servant Corps

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Re: Is Communism Dead?
« Reply #73 on: November 15, 2009, 12:13:20 pm »

China is a Communist state*, although possibly a revisionist one. It follows Socialism With Chinese Characteristics, but it is a Communist state that is following Maoism, even if they don't like Mao's actions.

China has 1/5 the GDP of the US. It has the potential to be richer than the US...but not now.

EDIT: *By Communist State, I mean a state that is attempting to reach the ideal stage of Communism. All Communist States have declared that they are all currently "socialist". Communism is the ideal, it has not been achieved yet.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2009, 12:16:26 pm by Servant Corps »
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Armok

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Re: Is Communism Dead?
« Reply #74 on: November 15, 2009, 03:24:39 pm »

What I think is needed is a completly new system unlike any other, and here is the important part; you can't just invent it from theory, you have to TEST many different system with real people, maybe a few thousand over a decade or so, and THEN apply it on a large scale like entire contries.

One example of such a system that might be tested: some products are handled strictly communisticaly (rice, electricity, housing, bus travel), some capitalistic (lobster, gasoline, tourism, decorations), and some anarchistic (software).
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