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[Neruz]

And : Random piece of evidence, the body loses 26 grams upon the moment of death. Nobody knows why.

I'm calling bullshit on this, period.

Check the link in my last post. It's a curiousity, but unconfirmed.

I'm guessing it's the moment that a human inexplicitly loses 26 grams.

Ooh, clever, a self-referential conclusion!

Also, it's 21.3 grams, not 26.

[Tack]

There we go, 21.3. I can't remember.

[Neruz]

It remains irrelevant however; one instance of testing, 6 times, 4 of which were discaarded due to errors, and all were inconsistant. The techniques used were unreliable and no concrete definition of when the moment of death actually was could be decided on.

It's a curiousity, nothing more, until anyone does any further testing. Since we still can't decide on what the moment of death is however, it's unlikely that will occur.

[Tack]

Huh. Ok. Sweet.

Well, I'd have to say that the point of death is when your brain stops working. But that's my personal opinion.

[Neruz]

Huh. Ok. Sweet.

Well, I'd have to say that the point of death is when your brain stops working. But that's my personal opinion.

How do you define 'brain stops working'?

[Tack]

Most usually when bloodflow has stopped sufficiently for all of the cells to shut down.
Though it could happen through shock or trauma.

[Neruz]

Most usually when bloodflow has stopped sufficiently for all of the cells to shut down.
Though it could happen through shock or trauma.

Sure about that? There are examples in the wild of animals that have brains that cease all cellular and electrical operation for long periods of time, but then 'revive' at a later date.

There's a type of frog for example that freezes during the winter; while frozen there is no detectable electrical activity in the brain, and only the tiniest trace of anaerobic glycolysis continues.


Additionally; it's possible for the brain to cease all activity, but the rest of the body to continue living, and it's possible for parts of the body to die (gangrene).



So you're going to be alot more specific than just 'bloodflow has stopped sufficiently for all the cells to shut down.' It's possible for me to chop your foot off, keep the foot alive, and kill you. Would your foot still contain your soul?

[Itnetlolor]

I recently watched something on History Channel about UFOs and ancient astronauts and such. I think this theory strikes pretty close. I mean, just look at all our ancient structures? The precision, the insanity, the scale, the shapes. These are all megaprojects.

I think God beat Toady to finishing the game in this regard. I think there are engravings or drawings in some of those locations that even show the most abstract form Man has taken in the past. A 'U' or a smiley face. I forget which.

[Tack]

So... When Toady finishes the game, we will have created a world, which will evolve, and eventually wonder about it's own conciousness?


Also - Not true. Most animals don't have much brain structure apart from the Brain Stem, which is far more hardy than the more evolved brains that humans have. Chickens, for example, have their brain stem further down the neck (No actual evidence on this) or something, which is why they survive after having their head cut off. Once your brain cells die, they are dead. Which is why strokes are so fatal. That is where bloodflow is cut off from the brain, causing part of it to die. (Actually do know what I'm talking about here.)

[Itnetlolor]

So... When Toady finishes the game, we will have created a world, which will evolve, and eventually wonder about it's own conciousness?

And eventually, a Dwarf named/nicknamed "Toady" will create a game of his own, based on engravings which will eventually lead into another cycle.

I guess you can call it recursive godlihood or existence or something.

[Neruz]

So... When Toady finishes the game, we will have created a world, which will evolve, and eventually wonder about it's own conciousness?


Also - Not true. Most animals don't have much brain structure apart from the Brain Stem, which is far more hardy than the more evolved brains that humans have. Chickens, for example, have their brain stem further down the neck (No actual evidence on this) or something, which is why they survive after having their head cut off. Once your brain cells die, they are dead. Which is why strokes are so fatal. That is where bloodflow is cut off from the brain, causing part of it to die. (Actually do know what I'm talking about here.)

That's the thing though; what defines a dead cell? Additionally, what is the ratio? If i take a single neurone from your brain and keep it alive, then kill you, will your soul therefore be attached to that neurone and denied an afterlife until it dies?

There are frogs (and a few other critters i think) which, during the winter, freeze. They are, by all current medical knowledge, dead. Their brains show no activity, their cells show almost no activity, they are, by our standards, dead.

Then, during the summer, they come back to life.


Finally, people who are 'brain dead' still have perfectly alive brains. They just have no electrical activity in their brain. The cells are just fine.

Would their soul still be attached to their body?


Finally; the reason why most creatures cannot survive being frozen is because cells are full of water, when frozen, the water expands and the cells rupture. Some finnish (i think) scientists are having a remarkable amount of luck using a special saline anti-freeze mixture, whereby they can rapidly replace a mouse's blood with this mixture and cool it down substantially. The mouse can remain in this state; with no measurable cellular activity and no nervous system electrical activity, for several hours, before having it's blood replaced and slowly warmed up until it is once again up and about.

I believe they started working on cats or dogs recently, and have been showing excellent progress. The process itself could be a potential life saver for millions heart attack victims every year, if it works on people.



It is very much possible to keep cells alive with minimal or no oxygen flow; the trick is to make the cells inactive before you cut the oxygen off; cells only need oxygen to do stuff, if they're not doing anything, they don't need oxygen.




Death used to be defined as "The point when the heart stops", this was because there was no known way to restart the heart. Then we worked out how to restart the heart, so we had to redefine death to "The point where electrical activity in the brain stops" (which turns out to be several minutes after the heart stops). This is because as of today, there is no known way to restart the electrical activity in the brain.

There's no reason to assume that doing this is impossible however; we can't do it yet certainly, but it's quite likely that in the not too distant future, we will be able too, and then we'll need to redefine death again.


Death is not as clear cut and easy to distinguish as you seem to think.

[Tack]

Sweet - so are they going to put that stuff in Walt Disney?

[Neruz]

It's a long way off human trials, and it doesn't last forever, the main use would be to flush heart attack victims systems with it, preserving them for the few vital hours neccessary to get them to hospital, it might possibly have a use in surgery as well, and various other places where temporarily staving off death for a short time can be the difference between waking up, and not waking up.

[Emperor_Jonathan]

Good luck getting volunteers if it does get to that stage :-S.

[Neruz]

You'd be surprised what people will do.