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[Capntastic]

Sure, milking probably wouldn't take more than maybe 2 - 3 hours, but is it really important to the game right now?

As stated, milking is just an example.

[brenoink]

Sure, milking probably wouldn't take more than maybe 2 - 3 hours, but is it really important to the game right now?
Sure, you got 2 professions that are useless, but those can be changed so it's not game breaking.
I for one, thinks actively working on the Arcs are more important than fixing trivial issues.

If you look in the future section where you can see the COREs and POWER GOALs etc., you'll see just how far the current DF are from the final project as Toady imagines it.

The ground stones are not even near set up.

I would have to think that basic things like milking an animal known for its bountiful milk production would be a part of this "groundwork"

[MiamiBryce]

I am a programmer, it's my life.  If I didn't do it for work, I'd do it for fun at home.  I'd like to offer some insight into two points that seem to be easily glossed over on these forums.

First - In reference to how bad the code for milking can possibly be and it not being a quick fix shows how badly DF is coded overall:  I am not the programmer today I was last year, nor the year before that.  Every day of programming is a day of learning what works and what doesn't.  I've cringed looking back at some of the things I've done years ago and you can't measure my skill today by the code I wrote then.  If Toady orginally wrote code for something 3 years ago - I can almost guarantee he wouldn't code it that way again.

Second - In reference to not completely smoothing out all the bumps (no matter how seemingly easy) that cause us problems (like dwarves sealing themselves in when building walls).  If anyone has bothered reviewing the goals he's set for this project you'd understand he has a lot that he wants to implement that isn't implemented yet.  If one of the parts he has coded 'works good enough' then he needs to go on to the next part.  I have to make these types of decisions every day at work.  When it's good enough to do what needs done and there's still more parts yet to code - you've got to just move on.

Bonus Thought - Withholding donations from Toady would only result in him having to get a job, THEN what would the release schedule be like.

[Gauphastus]

Uhm, I donated 'cause I'd been meaning to for awhile and I just got my credit card.
I don't have a man crush on Toady or anything. I just like Dwarf Fortress... >.>

[forsaken1111]

Yeah, they're not the same person. What a silly way to try and discredit someone you disagree with.

Well it is someone who made the account today, apparently for the express purpose of making this thread.

Anyways, I just read through the whole thread. Lots of hilarity all around, though I swear brenoink's calm and rational way of arguing is the very thing that's irritating people.

Oh yes, so very calm and rational...

"It makes no sense" == GRRRR I HATE EVERYONE I AM GOING TO BLOW A BLOOD VESSEL

[Capntastic]

Yeah, they're not the same person. What a silly way to try and discredit someone you disagree with.

Well it is someone who made the account today, apparently for the express purpose of making this thread.

Anyways, I just read through the whole thread. Lots of hilarity all around, though I swear brenoink's calm and rational way of arguing is the very thing that's irritating people.

Oh yes, so very calm and rational...

"It makes no sense" == GRRRR I HATE EVERYONE I AM GOING TO BLOW A BLOOD VESSEL

A:  Ah yes, someone registered on the forums to post something... how suspicious.

B:  Brenoink's response there is to Dakk saying he was raging out, when Dakk was the one randomly capitalizing whole words and all that.

[durendal.mk3]

Is it really necessary to get into a beard-measuring contest over something as trivial as milking? The original question was about how people justify donating when there hasn't been a major release in over a year, and many outstanding issues have yet to be resolved, it wasn't about pet feature "X".

The answer is simple: Toady is releasing regular updates talking about what work he's done. He could be making it up, of course, but if he's doing that then eventually he's going to run out of features to turn green and the project will die out faster than a Half Life mod. But ultimately, people are donating for what DF is, not what it's going to be.

I'm a programmer/software designer and sometimes it's not as easy as taking a few minutes just to implement what seems like a trivial feature. Sometimes you want to hold off because you know you're going to have to change it anyway; placeholders require effort that would be better spent on doing the Real Thing. And, of course, there's always the arduous task of testing.

[Rowanas]

We should have a beard measuring contest. That sounds strangely awesome...

[FluffyToast J]

Completely ignoring the fact that this argument is out of hand and frankly, fairly stupid, just why do you care that milking isnt in yet?

[Capntastic]

Completely ignoring the fact that this argument is out of hand and frankly, fairly stupid, just why do you care that milking isnt in yet?

Completely ignoring the thread, apparently.   It was an (one) example.

[LegoLord]

Well, I generally feel for the problems of other people, so when someone insults a hardworking man - who gets relatively little pay - for not working hard enough, I get upset that someone would have the nerve to do that.

Simply put, if Toady doesn't get any donation, he might have to get another job to get the money to live off of, which would slow down DF's development considerably, I imagine.  That coupled with the fact that, as far as he can tell, he's working on what people want most tell me he's worthy of donations.

If it isn't what most people want, then that's the fault of the majority that it doesn't speak.  Those that do tend to be rather demeaning in their complaint, so it's only natural those already here don't take kindly to them.  Then the person that spoke up goes and talks about how ignorant we all are here, when really we just don't like it when people can't make a nice, civil complaint.

In addition:  What is core to gameplay isn't necessarily core to programming.  The Cores are, as I understand it, things on which a large number of major features depend on.  One of these cores, or even an arc, might interfere with how milking would work if he implemented it now, and then he'd just have to do it again.  And again.  And again, until there weren't anymore interfering cores or arcs.  At least, that's what would happen if he did his work the way you wanted him to, brenoink, and with a far greater number of features than just milking.  Over time, the time taken up by the repeated reworkings would add up, and could potentially significantly delay completion - this is what durendal.mk3 was talking about.

You may know about programming, but there's a big difference between knowing how to write a sentence and knowing how to write a book.  Sentences are to books as programming is to a game.

[forsaken1111]

A:  Ah yes, someone registered on the forums to post something... how suspicious.

It is, in fact, very suspicious when someone registers and immediately makes a very inflammatory thread. It's also a well known tactic used to avoid possible moderation or fallout from whatever the thread brings up.

[danielout]

I normally lurk, but I'll chime in my two (perhaps worthless) cents...

In my (very limited; hobby only; novice) programming experience I don't necessarily work in an "optimal" pattern; I often go after "cooler" things first. For instance, I built a little web-based game for some friends and I a while back, and I tackled combat before I tackled the inventory system, because it was more fun to write. Sure, once I got around to the inventory it only took a fraction of the time that combat did, but working on the "fun" stuff helps keep me motivated.

I won't begin to claim that this is the way DF projects are tackled, but I think that each person has their own way of tackling coding projects, and how they piece out those projects. Unless I have hired someone and am their manager, I certainly won't try to impose any other method. After all, projects like this (at least in my mind) should be fun to play and fun to create.

There is enough tension here to cut with a dulled wooden dagger; maybe people on both sides need to step back and realize that (a) we're all human beings, with different likes, dislikes, and personalities; understanding each other despite these differences can be difficult in face-to-face dealings, so extra consideration should be taken online, and (b) we are all here because we like games, or at least because we play DF. Let's try not to isolate each other if possible.

if you thought my thread was too long: Play nice; play often; have fun.

[FluffyToast J]

Completely ignoring the thread, apparently.   It was an (one) example.

An example that he keeps bringing up over and over again despite others saying he has no clue, which I am inclined to believe.

[SirPenguin]

I am a programmer, it's my life.  If I didn't do it for work, I'd do it for fun at home.  I'd like to offer some insight into two points that seem to be easily glossed over on these forums.

First - In reference to how bad the code for milking can possibly be and it not being a quick fix shows how badly DF is coded overall:  I am not the programmer today I was last year, nor the year before that.  Every day of programming is a day of learning what works and what doesn't.  I've cringed looking back at some of the things I've done years ago and you can't measure my skill today by the code I wrote then.  If Toady orginally wrote code for something 3 years ago - I can almost guarantee he wouldn't code it that way again.

Second - In reference to not completely smoothing out all the bumps (no matter how seemingly easy) that cause us problems (like dwarves sealing themselves in when building walls).  If anyone has bothered reviewing the goals he's set for this project you'd understand he has a lot that he wants to implement that isn't implemented yet.  If one of the parts he has coded 'works good enough' then he needs to go on to the next part.  I have to make these types of decisions every day at work.  When it's good enough to do what needs done and there's still more parts yet to code - you've got to just move on.

Bonus Thought - Withholding donations from Toady would only result in him having to get a job, THEN what would the release schedule be like.

The basis of the "Toady is a bad programmer" argument is that he is very inexperienced. I am also a programmer, though perhaps not as experienced as yourself, but I'm sure we both realize that programming is about 75% planning and 25% implementing. It can be argued that Toady is good at implementing stuff, but he definitely is not proficient at planning. I'm not sure what the issue is at its core, whether it's simply Toady biting off more than he could chew or if its his severe lack of experience that holds him back. It's irrelevant.

Like it or not, we are Toady's investors here, yet we're in a situation where the investee is off doing whatever it is they want without really listening to the investors. Stranger still, people want to argue that it's ok for the investee to do whatever, because sometime in the indescribable future, something will happen that'll be kind of neat and worth the investment