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Author Topic: A Pen and Paper Game: Looking for some honest feedback  (Read 2667 times)

moghopper

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A Pen and Paper Game: Looking for some honest feedback
« on: November 05, 2009, 08:10:17 pm »

Hello
I've been writing out a Pen and paper game for some tome now, and have just finished the story, but since me thread in the forum games died on me I'm now with any source of feedback.

Would any of you care to kindly read over my work and tell me what you think?

Megaupload:(updated with changes made)
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=AOGJX32N
« Last Edit: November 12, 2009, 08:17:18 pm by moghopper »
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moghopper

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Re: A Pen and Paper Game: Looking for some honest feedback
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2009, 05:22:34 pm »

Anything?
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Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: A Pen and Paper Game: Looking for some honest feedback
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2009, 06:09:27 am »

I'm not really a story guy, actually, so I don't know that I can help you on that specifically, but I am a rules guy. You have clearly put a tremendous amount of work into this 160 page rulebook. I've collected a set of negative comments from skimming the first 30 pages or so. Please don't take the fact that these comments are negative to be any indication that I think your work is poor -- my hope is that you might find these comments useful, not offensive, and the only reason I'm sticking to areas you might look to for possible improvements is because that's a lot easier and I'm very tired right now.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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moghopper

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Re: A Pen and Paper Game: Looking for some honest feedback
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2009, 10:02:23 am »

I'm not really a story guy, actually, so I don't know that I can help you on that specifically, but I am a rules guy. You have clearly put a tremendous amount of work into this 160 page rulebook. I've collected a set of negative comments from skimming the first 30 pages or so. Please don't take the fact that these comments are negative to be any indication that I think your work is poor -- my hope is that you might find these comments useful, not offensive, and the only reason I'm sticking to areas you might look to for possible improvements is because that's a lot easier and I'm very tired right now.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Thank you VERY much, I'll be looking into these immediately.

three things you that you misunderstood though:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

But still, thank you for you're observations, I'm correcting things as we speak.

EDIT (Changes made): 1.Players now roll 2D6 and discard the lowest dice when determining stats. Should help even things out.

2. fixed which weapons are regarded as 1 handed

3. Improved scientists special ability to a +2, to increase it's benefits

4. changed the penalty for non-proficiency to -1 for weapons

5. lowered the endurance requirement for the Die hard trait
« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 10:57:45 am by moghopper »
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Aqizzar

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Re: A Pen and Paper Game: Looking for some honest feedback
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2009, 11:07:22 am »

Well, I'd like to comment on your game, as it sounds like a nice first attempt.  But according to RapidShare, I have to be a "Premium Member" to download the file, and that certainly ain't happening.
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And here is where my beef pops up like a looming awkward boner.
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moghopper

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Re: A Pen and Paper Game: Looking for some honest feedback
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2009, 11:18:14 am »

Well, I'd like to comment on your game, as it sounds like a nice first attempt.  But according to RapidShare, I have to be a "Premium Member" to download the file, and that certainly ain't happening.

That's odd, It shouldn't say that...
what exactly did it say?

Edit: nevermind! I know whats wrong. I'll just re-upload it, that will fix it.
Edit: It's up again. You can now download it without trouble
« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 11:21:34 am by moghopper »
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Aqizzar

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Re: A Pen and Paper Game: Looking for some honest feedback
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2009, 11:25:32 am »

I just tried again, but it still says there's no download slots left open for free members.  I think it allows like ten downloads with requiring a membership, so I wonder who's using it up so fast.  Maybe try Megaupload?
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And here is where my beef pops up like a looming awkward boner.
Please amplify your relaxed states.
Quote from: PTTG??
The ancients built these quote pyramids to forever store vast quantities of rage.

moghopper

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Re: A Pen and Paper Game: Looking for some honest feedback
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2009, 11:34:32 am »

I just tried again, but it still says there's no download slots left open for free members.  I think it allows like ten downloads with requiring a membership, so I wonder who's using it up so fast.  Maybe try Megaupload?

No idea how to work the thing.
Doesn't even tell you how to upload anything

Never mind, figured it out.

Also note that the file I uploaded is one that has not received the changes I made, only the master copy has received those changes
« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 12:10:14 pm by moghopper »
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Aqizzar

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Re: A Pen and Paper Game: Looking for some honest feedback
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2009, 02:08:18 pm »

Okay, I've had a chance to glance over it now.

1) The Character Creation guide should either have Class selection first, or the Statistics rules should be printed before the Classes.  It's a little confusing.

2) Shouldn't Scientists have Civilian Armor Proficiency?  They did used to be Civilians after all.

3) Is Mercenary really the best title for the combat class?  Perhaps Soldier would be better.

4) Giving Civilians a +1 to Attacks doesn't strike me as very Civilian-y.  It makes them combat powerhouses compared to even Mercenaries, since they start with 2 Attacks instead of 1.

5) The "# per Day" limits on abilities could be hard to make use of in practice.  What if one in-character day turns out to be really long and detailed?  Or a bunch of days are compressed into one game?

6) The Mercenary's Dodge ability says it succeeds on a D6 roll of 6+ (which at five chances a day is statistically unlikely to work even once) and doesn't say what to add to it, if anything is supposed to.

7) The "Etc..." under the effects of Psych is hideously confusing.  Say what it does, and everything it does.

8 ) The Concentrate skill describes a game mechanic (distraction) that sounds like it should be printed in a more Universal rules section, and is way too punishing.  Instead a penalty to actions rather than auto-failure?

9) There's a lot of skills which should be civilians grouped, or available to multiple classes.  Knowledge (Geography) for Mercenaries, Repair for Scientists (and which should definitely be an Int skill), Concentrate for all classes, and maybe others.

9.1) On the other hand, there's so few skills anyway, that maybe the Civilian shouldn't be the only class that can buy across groups?  How about any class can buy skills outside their group for 200 or 300 XP (with the Civilians still getting their bonus), but skills within the class's group is the normal price?

10) Do starting characters get a certain amount of XP to spend on starting skills and traits?  Because obviously not all the starting traits are equal, but you only get to pick one, so there's no reason not to take the best one you qualify for.

11) I'm not sure how characters actually use their skills.  Is it add the relevant stat and skill and die roll to meet a difficulty level?  Or something?  What about degrees of success and failure, i.e. the eternal Critical Success?  This is a very important part of the game that should be immediately obvious and clear to the reader, which within the first 30 pages, it is not.

And that's about as far as I've gotten.  It also needs a lot of simple editing, like grammar and typing issues, and reprinting rules in more places for clarity.
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And here is where my beef pops up like a looming awkward boner.
Please amplify your relaxed states.
Quote from: PTTG??
The ancients built these quote pyramids to forever store vast quantities of rage.

moghopper

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Re: A Pen and Paper Game: Looking for some honest feedback
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2009, 02:29:02 pm »

I'll look into these immediately.

Oh, and I should mention this is a draft. All grammatical and formatting errors are going to be fixed in the end product. Plus, you ARE right, I do need to shuffle some things around.

I'm starting to feel this isn't worth finishing
« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 02:31:06 pm by moghopper »
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Aqizzar

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Re: A Pen and Paper Game: Looking for some honest feedback
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2009, 02:41:22 pm »

I'm starting to feel this isn't worth finishing

Don't do that.  Nothing is ever "finished" per se, but at least get it to a point you're willing to call it finished.
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And here is where my beef pops up like a looming awkward boner.
Please amplify your relaxed states.
Quote from: PTTG??
The ancients built these quote pyramids to forever store vast quantities of rage.

moghopper

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Re: A Pen and Paper Game: Looking for some honest feedback
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2009, 03:09:17 pm »

Fixed... Well, everything you suggested

1. Move the statistics section ahead of character classes
2. Gave scientists civilian armor proficiency
3. Civilians now get +1 agility, +8 starting skill points, and have their starting skill rank cap raised to 3 instead of 2
4. removed the # of uses per day for all classes. Now they are per encounter.
5. the civilian ability now costs XP to activate and may now be used as many times as the character wishes
6. Mercenary ability is more valuable now, since it is per encounter instead of per day
7. got rid of the ETC.. under the psyche entry (what the hell was I thinking?)
8. Made concentrate only give a penalty  instead of auto fail. A lot less punishing
9. All classes may now buy skills from other skill groups for 300XP. except civilians, who only pay 100XP
10. New characters get 150XP to buy a starting trait, but don't keep left over XP afterwards
11. made the explanation on how skills work much clearer

Thank you for your sage advice Aquizzar
« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 03:32:36 pm by moghopper »
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Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: A Pen and Paper Game: Looking for some honest feedback
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2009, 04:15:43 pm »

I'm starting to feel this isn't worth finishing

This is probably just an effect of having people criticize your work! Now things you were proud of and thought were great nonetheless seem full of holes, and the work seems endless. This is especially if you haven't actually played with it... when will it ever be done enough to play? But in fact, you have a 160 page document already! You've put a tremendous amount of work into it, and it's more than ready to play. You don't have to get every detail right -- and you certainly don't have to agree with everything I or someone else says about it. If you haven't tried playing with it, consider organizing a game. All great RPG systems are built upon endless playtests to find out what actually works, then iteration to increase the good and remove the bad. You will learn more of what is great and what can be improved from playing with it (and being willing to bend the rules in rough spots, but taking notes when you do so) than you will from anything else. For example, die rolling in character creation is much about what kind of results you want for your players -- roll up a few sets of characters, and you'll quickly see how well that works well beyond theory.

Oh, and you can just use the / symbol to represent division. Typically when typed out linearly without special symbols, / means to divide, * means to multiply, and ^ raises a number to the power of the number following it.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 04:19:16 pm by Jonathan S. Fox »
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moghopper

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Re: A Pen and Paper Game: Looking for some honest feedback
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2009, 07:54:54 pm »

I'm going to add you two to the credits section under "Quality Control"
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moghopper

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Re: A Pen and Paper Game: Looking for some honest feedback
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2009, 05:19:11 pm »

Anyone else read any farther?
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