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[dakarian]

Bellsounder has ended. 


I'll let you guys decide when Boot Camp/Sudden Death can start.

Remove Eversion from the list completely.  I like the concept but I'm starting to get a better handle on what games work and what don't and OVERLY complicated doesn't work. 

Instead, BYOR: Choices can go into the que, though that won't run until Webadict and ExKirby's games are done.

Of course, I always have other Bastard Puzzles in my head but bay 12 probably needs a good rest from them for now (not sure how well Bellsounder was received)

[Mr.Person]

I think one problem with bastard mod games is that there's rarely any clues to the solution, so it often because a guessing game where if you guess right, you win and if you guess wrong, you lose.

[Leafsnail]

I suppose that's one way in which Bellsounder was good - if you got it wrong, you still had another 4 chances to get it right.  Indeed, the bastard element was cracked by Webadict.

[Vector]

I think one problem with bastard mod games is that there's rarely any clues to the solution, so it often because a guessing game where if you guess right, you win and if you guess wrong, you lose.

This.  1000% this.  It's the main reason why I'm spending so long fiddling with Prism, and considering expanding it into a game with more players: it shouldn't be a guessing-game so much as an exploration-game.

Remove Eversion from the list completely.  I like the concept but I'm starting to get a better handle on what games work and what don't and OVERLY complicated doesn't work. 

[...]

Of course, I always have other Bastard Puzzles in my head but bay 12 probably needs a good rest from them for now (not sure how well Bellsounder was received)

I enjoyed it, but got extremely pissed off by the lurkers/terrible town coordination.  It'd be good to keep running bastard mods, but I generally feel like Bay12 needs to figure out how to make them.  Running a mafia game is a lot like programming: you've got to make a good user interface or no one will use your app.  Most mafia games come with a standard "user interface package," but bastard mods aren't really a mafia game, so they need a different UI to reflect that.  It's hard enough to scumhunt, but it's even harder to scumhunt while trying to figure out a puzzle with no clues.

Had you picked something other than bells--candles being lit, or something--it would have been almost impossible.  You say it was a "red herring," but it was actually a rather large symbolic clue.  I'm convinced that the use of bells was the key to the town getting as far as it did.

Sad about the lack of Eversion, but oh well.

...I could do a 2-in-1? Time Travel BSER.

Dude, no >_>  As Dakarian is saying above, that's entirely too much crazy.

I suppose that's one way in which Bellsounder was good - if you got it wrong, you still had another 4 chances to get it right.  Indeed, the bastard element was cracked by Webadict.

Don't give him so much credit.

Mr. Person cracked it first.  Then I did.  Then Webadict.  Town did quite well on the puzzle-solving element... just not so well on the scumhunting part >_>



Also:

Dakarian, you need to post that stuff in the Games Threshold list.  You may note that you're not going to get any headway over here.

[dakarian]

@Vector

Yah, when I started seeing the lurkings and, worse, the nights where some people didn't send actions, I knew things would turn ugly. In truth, Day 5's 'silent town' at the end really sealed the deal: you guys HAD the right mentality (organize yourselves and set up a chain death) that would've cracked it (wouldn't have WON, but you would've seen more than enough to figure out there was something wrong with Leafsnail, which was really the piece you still needed to win).  Day 6 was WAYY too late: by then you needed the entire puzzle solved.

As for Eversion.. it's too much of a Jack.  At times it would play completely normal while other times it would play crazy-go-nutz.  A game really needs to be set in one or the other to get the proper mindset and playerbase.  Besides, I keep pushing it back to do other games instead .

On the puzzle vs scum:  I guess it comes back to something I said earlier: People can puzzle hunt, or scumhunt, but they can't do both.  The game really DID need for you to scumhunt (to find Leafsnail) then puzzle hunt (to figure out how to stop him).  I actually expected Leaf to be outted first after 3 bells or so, then for him to have to try to sneak the last two bells in while you guys try to figure out the puzzle. 


Lastly

#&%&@*$*#)*%@($

I THOUGHT THIS WAS THE THRESHOLD LIST!

Meh and double meh.


Lastly:  Really about the bells?  I kind of like that, but I don't have a clue how bells over anything else gave out any info.

[Vector]

As for Eversion.. it's too much of a Jack.  At times it would play completely normal while other times it would play crazy-go-nutz.  A game really needs to be set in one or the other to get the proper mindset and playerbase.  Besides, I keep pushing it back to do other games instead .

[...]

Lastly:  Really about the bells?  I kind of like that, but I don't have a clue how bells over anything else gave out any info.

Fair enough--I forgot that different people tend to enjoy playing different games.


As far as the bells go, someone brought up the Hunchback of Notre Dame, in which there's a passage about the different uses of bells--i.e., deaths, births, weddings, sending people off to sea, blah blah blah.  Further, you have the typical "knell" and "saved by the bell" sayings, which further ties into the death/resurrection theme. 

I remember thinking multiple times of this quotation from Macbeth, as well:

I go, and it is done; the bell invites me.
Hear it not, Duncan, for it is a knell
That summons thee to heaven, or to hell.

That directed me in the puzzle-cracking direction.


If you'd had candles being blown out, flowers blooming, or flowers dying, I might have gotten somewhere.  Lit candles, and I would have been completely screwed.

[Mr.Person]

The funny part? I was pushing for NOT killing everyone. I eventually decided to try other things, so I didn't instantly jump back to killing everyone. Quite sad, really.

I think that's what it comes down to. If you're running a bastard mod just for the sake of having weird rules that you want the players to figure out, just cut to the chase and run a mountainous with the town after a lone serial killer. I can't think of a single bastard mod I've ever seen where the hidden rules added to the game instead of just distracting the players. So until I say otherwise, I won't be playing in any puzzle-based bastard mod games, and I highly recommend that you guys avoid running more in the future. If you really insist on it, send me a copy of the game so I can laugh at you insult you insult your family tell you why I think that game in particular is a bad idea.

If you guys do run more, the only advise I can offer is to just ignore the rules and shit: Find and lynch the scum. Don't do ANYTHING except vote for who you think is scum and any night action(s) you might have. Hell, I dare say, unless you have a good reason to, don't even do your night actions. Do NOT unvote, random vote, no lynch, let anything fly by you, lurk, trust any "inspections" you might have, assume anything about your win condition or ignore Webadict.

[Vector]

I think that's what it comes down to. If you're running a bastard mod just for the sake of having weird rules that you want the players to figure out, just cut to the chase and run a mountainous with the town after a lone serial killer. I can't think of a single bastard mod I've ever seen where the hidden rules added to the game instead of just distracting the players. So until I say otherwise, I won't be playing in any puzzle-based bastard mod games, and I highly recommend that you guys avoid running more in the future.

If you guys do run more, the only advise I can offer is to just ignore the rules and shit: Find and lynch the scum. Don't do ANYTHING except vote for who you think is scum and any night action(s) you might have. Hell, I dare say, unless you have a good reason to, don't even do your night actions.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one.  We've had a little run of terrible bastard mods with weird mechanics and pretty much no ability to figure out what was going on.  Puzzle-based bastard mods with fairly simple setups seem to work fine, especially since we're now having instances of the town figuring out what's going on.

In other words, total bastard is somewhat unworkable, but semi-bastard is nice.  Part of the point is the distraction.  It's fun to try to work out what's going on in multiple levels--which players are scum, and how the game works, and so on.

What such a game needs, however, is long days, lots of kill-block capability, and a fair number of hints (if not mechanics to help both town and scum figure out the rules).  I think a lot of the trouble that we're seeing is that the scum knows too much, adding to their inherent advantage, rather than leaving them as clueless as everyone else and needing to post/help so that they, too, can figure out what's happening.

[dakarian]

@Mr.Person

Essentually, you are saying that we shouldn't run a bastard mod at all since the entire POINT to them is 'hidden rules that distract the players'. 

Sidenote: the last paragraph depends on the game, but would've won it for both of my B mods I think.  You wouldn't be able to stop the Endless Witch, BUT finding him would've been a great help.  For the other B mod, I had actually set it so that just ignoring everything and playing it mountainous would've let you win easily.

Though I still say that the inactivity ruined you more in Bellsounder more than anything.

Fakeedit:

I also figured out that MASS mechanics stinks but more simple setups work well.  You CAN give the mafia crazier roles since they have more time to decide but the town needs something more simple.  Bellsounder, for example, didn't require the town to know HOW the mafia works just that they were in the way.  I make note that it was figured out that the mafia needed to die first.


It's tricky balancing things.  If the game goes too short, the town has no time to figure things out.  If too long, then the town goes half dead.  A mafia with too little information will mess up too easily and a town with too little information will go all over the place testing things they shouldn't bother with. 

I do believe that the mafia should remain the 'knowledgable ones', especially in games where they can't win if the town knows the secret. 


If I do consider something, perhaps fully eliminate scumhunting from the win condition: have it so that the town can win even if they never find out the scum.  Then it's a match to see if the scum can stop the town from figuring out the puzzle.  It still makes it a 'mafia' since it's 'informed majority/uninformed majority' even if the game works completely different from a normal style.

Sidenote: bastard mods are a particular taste.  Many people who like Mafia will HATE all forms of Bastard Mods while some will hate mafia but LOVE Bastards. 

[Mr.Person]

Hints hints hints hints hints MOTHERFUCKING hints hints hints hints hints hints

Hints

[Leafsnail]

Yep, scumhunting would've worked well.  Remember, if you had lynched me on any day, I would flip Endless Witch and I would be basically confirmed scum (sidenote - I didn't know anything more about the roleflips than you did, but decided it'd be best to avoid death after getting a "no response" re my question about it).  I'd then somehow have to convince you guys not to carry out the plan... which would be somewhat difficult.

Although - if you hadn't worked out the puzzle and just lynched me every day, I would've won.  It would've taken about 50 days, but I would've won in the end .

[CobaltKobold]

Scumhunting worked perfectly well in Ill Met By Moonlight. Unfortunately the setup is almost unplayable after it's revealed.

I think one problem with bastard mod games is that there's rarely any clues to the solution, so it often because a guessing game where if you guess right, you win and if you guess wrong, you lose.

I can, without giving much away, point out that this is 86%* false in a certain game.

I go, and it is done; the bell invites me.
Hear it not, Duncan, for it is a knell
That summons thee to heaven, or to hell.

That directed me in the puzzle-cracking direction.

Hold on to that thought.

[Neruz]

Multipick Mafia needs more /in's!

[Pandarsenic]

I can't think of a single bastard mod I've ever seen where the hidden rules added to the game instead of just distracting the players.

;_;

[CobaltKobold]

EXHIBIT 1: KILL WEBADICT NOW