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[ToonyMan]

Alternatively, each player could be given the ability to extend the game by 24 hours once, encouraging players to save their extend for when they really need it.

Ooo making the extension mechanic even more part of the game.  I like.

[Toaster]

I'm willing to run a test game with that.  I've been wanting to do JK9++ anyway, so why not?

[zombie urist]

I've been thinking about extensions too due to the BM.

An idea I had was to make the first extension require 33% as normal, then the next one require (33%+1), and so on until everyone needs to agree to extend.

[Mephansteras]

I've been thinking about extensions too due to the BM.

An idea I had was to make the first extension require 33% as normal, then the next one require (33%+1), and so on until everyone needs to agree to extend.

I have a cap of 2 extensions per day, which seems to help a good bit.

[Leafsnail]

To be honest I think we should just ditch extensions altogether other than mod issued emergency ones.  Give the players as much time as you think they need and then they can hammer if they've made a decision.  Extensions just create lots of white noise posts and allows for endless days.

[Imp]

Why do BMs have only two ICs in play?

Since NQT's seen fit to mention the one currently in play I suppose I can too.

Week one we had total absence of IC Griffinpup, replaced after a week.  By that time we had absolute minimal interaction from the other IC, Deathsword.

Then Darvi, Griffinpup replacement was active for one week, with an almost total absence of the other IC for that week (1 post was made).

Then Darvi went silent again, for -two weeks- (save for a single oops post about forgetting the game at the end of the first week of silence).

We -need- to see normal play.  We newbies.  We need diversity and balance.

Has a BM consisting of around 40-60% experienced players been considered?  That way if one or another is 'distracted' or not as experienced as one might hope an IC is, if stuff comes up - there's more balance and flow.  Newbies have a greater chance of seeing effective playstyles, of seeing different things caught, of interacting with experienced players who are actually there to play and who actually care about the game - and those experienced players are not 'just' surrounded by newbies.

I'm in two other games with a far higher percentage of experienced players - no two experienced players are playing the same way.  Often everyone is making mistakes, misunderstanding things, people catch certain details but miss others, people think different things are Scummy.

I think BMs need more of that 'real balance'.  Do what you see fit with the extension rules or any other rules - but apparently people, -experienced people- some of them have trouble tracking vote counts.  Mods need to update frequently.  Mods need to follow the rules/expectations/guidelines set in the OP - if the OP says nights last for 24 hours - Don't set them to be 48 hours with no explanation.  Change whatever you think needs changing in the set up of the BM game - but what I think it needs MOST is the balance of a larger number of experienced players to the inexperienced ones.  And I feel that's a critical need.

[Leafsnail]

So basically, abolish beginner mafias and instead let some beginners into regular games on the understanding that they'll be trained there?  That seems like a reasonable idea, I feel like the inevitable flaking in BMs turns people off the game.

[notquitethere]

I rather suspect that functionally the BM is mostly a way of screening off players insufficiently reliable to play games on the subforum. Most games played have players with a mix of experience (you only need to play in one game to play in others). I think BMs don't need more ICs: they need to be more fun and entice more players into sticking around. I think the Sprint BM is the way forward.

[zombie urist]

The problem is no one really wants to play with beginners because they have a tendency to flake.

We need better ICs.

[notquitethere]

Or a better format that disincentives flakiness by having shorter punchier days.

[Nerjin]

Well I guess your idea would work NQT, but how would that work? Having a two day thing instead of three? 24 hour days? Or am I misunderstanding what you're proposing? I like the idea but... I dunno, seems like it'd give people like Tiruin a bit of a hard time.

[Imp]

So basically, abolish beginner mafias and instead let some beginners into regular games on the understanding that they'll be trained there?  That seems like a reasonable idea, I feel like the inevitable flaking in BMs turns people off the game.

No, that's a different suggestion, and that's not what I intended to suggest above.

I rather suspect that functionally the BM is mostly a way of screening off players insufficiently reliable to play games on the subforum. Most games played have players with a mix of experience (you only need to play in one game to play in others). I think BMs don't need more ICs: they need to be more fun and entice more players into sticking around. I think the Sprint BM is the way forward.

I agree with there being multiple purposes for there being BMs, and I agree that 'screening/making sure players have certain minimum understandings' is an acceptable reason for them to exist.

I have read the OP for the Sprint BM; the first time I did (as a totally new player) I didn't really understand how that game was going to be different from the other, except 'faster' for reasons I didn't quite understand.  Possibly faster to the point of being rushed.  It also didn't tempt me very much -

Tired of the plodding pace of normal games? Just not interested in spending more than a month reading and arguing? Never manage to finish a game?

My answer to all of those questions, personally, before my first Mafia game were 'No idea', 'No, that might be interesting but probably not fun.  Sounds weird, not like any sort of game' and 'No.... I finished games when I want to... why ask me this?'

My answer to them now that I've got -some- Mafia experience is:  'No.'  'No.'  and '.... you're specifically talking about -Mafia- games, right?  I've just not had a chance to finish any of those yet.  Need more time - but it's not something I fail at, no'.

Before I'd actually played a game, eliminating the 'pause' for nights didn't mean anything to me - now I'm neutral about it.  Nights are both 'boring' and a chance to take a break.  I'm eager for night to end, and somewhat dread it.

And I laugh a little at the idea of everyone coordinating so well.  It's hard for me to -believe- that style will flow like it has the potential to.  I see that potential and I agree the dream is worth reaching for.  I think Sprint BM is a great experiment and I intend to watch it as closely as I would if I were signed up to play.  I just don't trust that people overall will consistently 'do' the rapid interplay required.  Heck, in one of the game's I'm in the Mod even posted a warning, 'send in your night actions within the next 12 hours or lose them'.  I don't think people are waiting so long because the night is long - I don't think 'boredom' is the (sole or universal) cause of player slow action and low involvement, so I don't really believe that just 'speeding things up' are going to fix all these issues for all players.

But all players are different and like different things, I think it's ideal that there are things like Sprint BM being tried and I do hope it's a success.  I'm not eager to see Sprint BM become the only style of BM - I think there are players who are not that sort of player, even players for whom the 'rapid swish' style promised in the OP may seem somewhat intimidating and not preferred for their very first experience into whatever the heck Mafia is.

As to why to add -more- ICs into a 'beginner's game' - look guys.

Why are the ICs really there?  Is this quote a lie?

It still has an instructional aspect, however, and as such two ICs will be present in the game; one to play the game with you, and another to simply act as an advisor to the opposing party - the eponymous Mafia. Their primary purpose is to teach you to play Mafia, and will do everything to further that goal even after death - but keep in mind that the playing IC will still play for keeps.

So this implies that the reason for both ICs -inferrentially for any IC - is to show newer players how to play.  Is that true?

But there's NO apparent vetting system.  And if the currently present ICs in any BM show absent, weird, problematic, lurky, erratic, or any other flavor of poor play - what exactly is being taught and how?

The answer to that isn't -fewer- ICs, it's more, which gives more chances for at least some of those ICs to be players able to be engaged, able to play with some sort of skill, and able to provide a wider glimpse of what good play is, may be, and isn't.

If there's X chance - if there's any chance! - that any one  IC 'isn't a great one', the more ICs you have the more chance you have of having at least one that's really there to play and really able to play.  And the more chance with different playstyles present that -each- individual flavor of newbie playing might find an example that 'makes sense' and is really useful for understanding what good play is and isn't.

So no, I suggest not abolishing the BM at all.  Keep it for all its many reasons why it exists.  But yes, make it better, yes experiment.  Try 2-4 sprint BMs, even if the first is a complete failure.  But try other things too - and one thing I hope gets tried is a close to even mix of ICs-to-newbies, run -as- a BM, with the current (or however needs modification) BM setup.

[Imp]

The problem is no one really wants to play with beginners because they have a tendency to flake.

We need better ICs.

But it's just the -beginners- that are flaking, right?   

How about an addendum to the BM rules (in addition to adding in ~50% experienced) - since the 'purposes of the BM game' appear to include things like 'newbies learn how to play' and 'Experienced Mods and players get to see if any given newbie actually intends to play' - include a few reasons why a BM might get canceled in mid play.  If people really agree with this statement:  no one really wants to play with beginners then there should be no reason to finish the game if all or even most of the beginners are flaking... if all or most of the ICs are flaking.... or if all or most of all of the players are flaking.

So it is understood and 'accepted' that if a BM goes ugly/boring/sad/distasteful or whatever, it just gets stopped.  Maybe have a 'vote to cancel game' requiring most players to agree (60%?  80%?, with a 48 hour silence from the thread or failure to vote 'continue game' being counted as a 'cancel game' vote?), maybe make it a pure mod call (as it already silently is), but put it in the rules clearly and remove the stigma.  So maybe there will be more serious ICs, and fewer 'OMG, we really have to play through this?' days in BMs.

[Mephansteras]

The other half of the 'testing' that a BM does is give new players an idea if they like Mafia or not. It's one of the main reasons you get new players flaking at a higher rate than veteran players. Some people find that they just don't enjoy Mafia, don't have the time for it, can't handle the stress, whatever. And they bow out, usually never to return.

Not saying veteran players don't flake out as well, but generally they at least know that they enjoy the game and intend to go for the entire time.

So I agree that a Beginner game should have more built-in capability to deal with people dropping out than a standard Mafia game does. Whether that's a kill switch, a more robust replacement system, concrete rules for modkills of absent players, or something else. Been too long since I've run a BM, so I'm not sure which is best. Probably a combination. (Pretty sure I only ran the first one, though I've had beginners in a few of my normal games).

[Leafsnail]

If the majority of players are going to be non-beginners, why bother even keeping the beginner format?  It would be easier to attract the massive number of ICs if it was a mod chosen setup rather than the same not particularly interesting semi-open/open one every time.

A cancel game vote would only make sense on a unanimous vote from the players (with absent players counted as voting in favour), otherwise the town can just vote to end the game if they get into an unfavourable situation.