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[Neruz]

Good catch, though if you don't care for it, why bring it up?

Not my post; but i'm going to answer this one anyway. There are degrees of suspicion, everything is not black and white. I don't put a huge amount of stock in 3/4th votes either, since most scum know about the 3/4 vote tell and thus avoid them, but that doesn't mean that they are dismissed completely. Just that they shouldn't be the foundation or lynchpin around an argument.


This seems to be a consistant problem with you guys; something is either incredibly scummy and thus lynchworthy, or it's not, in which case it should be ignored entirely. Has nobody ever heard of 'building your case'?

[CobaltKobold]

dakarian: I point it out because it seemed odd to me.

I think defending Toonyman from Neruz's attack does tarnish your reputation...as, while Neruz is being scummy, he has been making arguments in the same vein as I- that Toony is apparently not being very forthcoming on his reasoning. (Like webadict, which is highly unusual for webadict).

...is ad hominem SUPPOSED to work in mafia? 'cause I'm trying to avoid it.

[Vector]

This seems to be a consistant problem with you guys; something is either incredibly scummy and thus lynchworthy, or it's not, in which case it should be ignored entirely. Has nobody ever heard of 'building your case'?

A lot of us play kind of oddly, in my experience.  We make allowances for that, because we've learned the hard way that lynching everyone who looks scummyscumscum is going to lose the game for the town. 

Therefore, new players tend to get put through a grinder until we figure out their eccentricities.  After that, we ignore some of their proclivities and tend to go for things we know are scummy for just about everyone (blatant contradictions/backpedaling/etc. typically earn you an instalynch) or build cases (sometimes strikes scum, sometimes not.  Frequently backfires.).  It doesn't seem like an all-or-nothing response from over here.

[Neruz]

Ad hominem is an odd one in Mafia; generally it doesn't work, as employing ad hominem would be if, say, Toony pointed out a flaw in my logical reasoning (say i accidentally let slip that i knew for a fact someone was town, and i did not roleclaim cop), and i responded by pointing out that his argument was invalid because he is gay. That would be a standard ad hominem and completely irrelevant.

However, as Mafia is about people interacting with people, launching attacks upon them based upon their actions rather than addressing the actions directly is possible, but very risky and rarely creates a solid argument; it's best used to reinforce your current point rather than as a base for creating a new one.

Therefore, new players tend to get put through a grinder until we figure out their eccentricities.  After that, we ignore some of their proclivities and tend to go for things we know are scummy for just about everyone (blatant contradictions/backpedaling/etc. typically earn you an instalynch) or build cases (sometimes strikes scum, sometimes not.  Frequently backfires.).  It doesn't seem like an all-or-nothing response from over here.

It's the (what seems to me, i could be wrong) blatant disregard for the fact that Toony has contributed absolutely nothing to the thread and that his posts have no content at all that is getting to me.

Sure that might be how he normally plays (doesn't appear to be), in which case it's just plain unaccetapble, as that is quite literally the absolute perfect scum defense.

[Pandarsenic]

A reminder of what I said before: When someone that is dead has had his PM exposed (like with Envy's PM), the town is free to ask questions about said PM. They will get any information about the PM that the original player could (other than the REDACTED info). THIS IS A USEFUL THING. DON'T IGNORE IT.

[Neruz]

A reminder of what I said before: When someone that is dead has had his PM exposed (like with Envy's PM), the town is free to ask questions about said PM. They will get any information about the PM that the original player could (other than the REDACTED info). THIS IS A USEFUL THING. DON'T IGNORE IT.

Fine; lets clear this up once and for all.


Does Leafsnail using his 'replace' power cause his role PM to be revealed, thus telling the entire thread what he did when he does it?

[CobaltKobold]

  After that, we ignore some of their proclivities and tend to go for things we know are scummy for just about everyone (blatant contradictions/backpedaling/etc. typically earn you an instalynch)

Um. Blatant contradictions do not seem to be earning any lynches...

Okay, it's pretty clear now that my vote on Webadict's doing nothing for the town, as he's basically got a mod pardon on him today. Tomorrow...is another day.
Unvote Webadict
Cheeetar, why is NOBODY going after your reasonless townhammer here day 1?

PPE: Guys, I meant ad hominem in a specific form, actually "Hey, this guy is doing some scummy stuff over here. Ergo, he is scum, ergo this other argument should be ignored".

[Neruz]

A reminder of what I said before: When someone that is dead has had his PM exposed (like with Envy's PM), the town is free to ask questions about said PM. They will get any information about the PM that the original player could (other than the REDACTED info). THIS IS A USEFUL THING. DON'T IGNORE IT.

Oh; and another question, if Leafsnail is targeted by say 3 kill abilities in one night, and also uses his duplicate ability, would the ability succeed, or would Leafsnail die without converting someone?

[Vector]

  After that, we ignore some of their proclivities and tend to go for things we know are scummy for just about everyone (blatant contradictions/backpedaling/etc. typically earn you an instalynch)

Um. Blatant contradictions do not seem to be earning any lynches...

I haven't seen any blatant contradictions lying around (possibly because I am half-asleep).  Otherwise, I would be attacking that person like they were trying to light my clothing on fire.

I meant "In general, we lynch for being contradictory, particularly when we think the person in question has been caught in a lie."

[CobaltKobold]

CONTRADICTION

Reconcile.

Lynch Me is when someone wants to be lynched.  Usually a jester or someone acting jesterer to avoid being lynched.

Vote Me is when someone wants votes.  I have no clue why someone would want this, unless they want to be lynched and yes, that becomes a Lynch Me.

Neruz says he can steal votes, then says he CAN'T. 

VOTE ME NERUZ THEN.

CONFIRM YOUR SCUMITUDE.

(bolding was added for emphasis)

I try to avoid posting when half-asleep. It'd probably lead to me quoting some other mafia games I'm watching and saying "I FOUND THE SCUM" in bold, ninety-point serifed headlines.

[Vector]

Yeah, that would be the sound of me being stressed and overcaffeinated.  Time for Vector to sleep.

[dakarian]

dakarian: I point it out because it seemed odd to me.

I think defending Toonyman from Neruz's attack does tarnish your reputation...as, while Neruz is being scummy, he has been making arguments in the same vein as I- that Toony is apparently not being very forthcoming on his reasoning. (Like webadict, which is highly unusual for webadict).

...is ad hominem SUPPOSED to work in mafia? 'cause I'm trying to avoid it.

Ad hominem is extremely messy in mafia, since the majority of the uses involve "so and so is scum".  Since it's not confirmed that the person is actually mafia, arguing against them based on said scumminess has no basis of fact.  When it's used to argue over someone's defense then it's circular reasoning:

For example, for all that I have problems with Neruz, I cannot just ignore his arguments based on those problems.  Even if I view someone as Scum, I can't just ignore his viewpoints until he flips. 


As for Toony, your argument has more water than Neruz since I have a handle on what your problem is with him: he needed prodding before stating his reasons.  Note that this is different from Neruz, who claims Toony never gave any reasons (which is untrue).  As to why I'm not following along with it or Web's lynch is thusly: the delayed reason alone aren't enough for me to mark him guilty and it's so far all you have to attack him on. 

It's like if I said "Someone put the 3rd vote down!  Let's lynch him!".  You'd agree that it did happen but wouldn't lynch on that since you need more.  Unless I provided more, I'd have no means to convince you. 

BTW: I've deemed Neruz's response about the 3/4 thing insulting and condesending.


As far as Cheeetar.. that was another "after other targets" deal.  I stopped going for Cheeetar when I went after ExKirby. 

You want Web but will turn him down to go after Cheeetar.   I want Meph, but I had been after Cheeetar and never really felt that he looked better afterwards. 

Unvote-Meph  Vote Cheeetar


Meanwhile, it seems the town has a problem with Neruz, Toonyman, Webadict, and Meph.  Add the people who've gone into the sidelines/lurker mode and we have a VERY busy day 3.


Btw, scum only get to walk away from a near lynch when the town is unwilling to go back to the past days and continue where they left off.  So long as you're willing to go back and reread the past days, combine it with more recent work, and continue your hunt, your prey will always be caught in the end.  That includes the 'unlynchables' like Toony and Web.

[Pandarsenic]

A reminder of what I said before: When someone that is dead has had his PM exposed (like with Envy's PM), the town is free to ask questions about said PM. They will get any information about the PM that the original player could (other than the REDACTED info). THIS IS A USEFUL THING. DON'T IGNORE IT.

Fine; lets clear this up once and for all.


Does Leafsnail using his 'replace' power cause his role PM to be revealed, thus telling the entire thread what he did when he does it?

Using REPLACE will not reveal whether or not he did, but it will cause him to roleflip normally.

[Neruz]

A reminder of what I said before: When someone that is dead has had his PM exposed (like with Envy's PM), the town is free to ask questions about said PM. They will get any information about the PM that the original player could (other than the REDACTED info). THIS IS A USEFUL THING. DON'T IGNORE IT.

Fine; lets clear this up once and for all.


Does Leafsnail using his 'replace' power cause his role PM to be revealed, thus telling the entire thread what he did when he does it?

Using REPLACE will not reveal whether or not he did, but it will cause him to roleflip normally.

So basically using replace will do exactly what we saw; Leafsnail will die and his role PM will be posted (which effectively tells us what he did, since he had 2 lives and it's unlikely 2 people would have targeted him at the same time.)

How about my other question; if he's killed on the same night he replaces, does he die, or does he replace?



Oh; also, if he replaces someone, does that person also get an extra life?

[Eduren]

A reminder of what I said before: When someone that is dead has had his PM exposed (like with Envy's PM), the town is free to ask questions about said PM. They will get any information about the PM that the original player could (other than the REDACTED info). THIS IS A USEFUL THING. DON'T IGNORE IT.

"Is there anything in the PM that I(we) should know about?"

That is a valid question from the player.