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[Neruz]

By the way dak, if you want me to prove i'm paying attention, may i draw your attention to this post by Meph:

(For reference, trying to Meta-game me is a bad idea. I'm specifically using some of my previous scum tells this game when I'm town to help me remove them. I'm actively working to improve myself as a player. In any case asking questions is a perfectly valid tactic and I don't want to have everyone go "he's scum" everyone time I ask someone a question)

That's some pretty solid WIFOM there, "It's alright guys, i'm about to look really scummy intentionally, all those scum tells? I meant to put those there. It's all part of my plan."

Admittedly, i did exactly the same thing, and i would probably lynch myself for what i did if i didn't know myself as well as i do. I would also like to draw your attention to the fact that i've dropped the scummy act, Meph, however, appears to have every intention of keeping it up indefinitely.


This is what we call a "Get Out of Jail Free Card". Watch out for those.

[dakarian]

Neruz carrying an insanely large "SCUMMY" sign doesn't help.


Which is why I'm seriously not liking what's going on.  When people start purposely acting scummy..well..  Shadar Logoth comes to mind.

Spoiler: Shadar WHAT?! (click to show/hide)

Aridhol was the capital of the nation of the same name during the Trolloc Wars. The king of the time followed the advice of Mordeth, and used the tactics of the Shadow against it. Their battlecry was, "The victory of the Light is all", and they uttered it more frequently as their deeds became more of the Shadow than the Light. Some would prefer to see the arrival of Trollocs than the soldiers of Aridhol.

Eventually, this distrust led to every man, woman and child of Aridhol slaying each other in a single night. In their demise, they left something behind in the very foundations of the city. And one man had survived.

In the latter days of the Trolloc Wars, a Shadow army - Trollocs, Dreadlords, Darkfriends, and Myrddraal - camped in the ruins of Aridhol.

The next day, they did not come out. Men were sent to find out what had occured. They found walls streaked with blood, pieces of weaponry and armor, and pleas to the Dark One to save them, written in blood in the Trolloc tongue. When they later returned, they found - nothing. All the walls had been scoured away, the weapons and armor had gone.

After the revealing of Mashadar, men named the city Shadar Logoth.

Fakeedit @Neruz

"Meph is trying to look scummy intentionally and is claiming that he's doing it just because and he's really town. Now that is horribly scummy, a flood of WIFOM and lynchable.  Oh yah, did the same thing and I should be lynched but I know myself better than that so that's ok.  Besides, I stopped so it's all cool"


.....


I think I'm done. 


If you're scum, you've just damned yourself.  If you're town, you've killed the spirit of this town and turned it into Shadar Logoth.

But I'm done.  Go ahead and find whatever dirt you can pull on who you believe is scummy.  If your scum you'll bring a nice beacon towards your scummates, even as you try to avoid it.  As town..perhaps we'll find a way to salvage this thing tomorrow.

For today though, I believe it's time for this day to end.

[Eduren]

If you really want to lynch me, go ahead and lynch me, but make sure you take down Toony when i flip town, because he's using the old magicians trick of providing just enough details to the lie that you automatically fill in the blanks, so that when it invariably turns pear shaped he can, with absolute honesty, say that he didn't provide all those reasons for why Neruz was scum.

As town, this is a dangerous attitude. Saying "It'll be him or me!" is very likely to end in 2 mislynches. And honestly, Toony isn't acting terribly scummy. Ignoring meta, he is being aggressive, and going for a particularly hard lynch.

[Neruz]

Neruz carrying an insanely large "SCUMMY" sign doesn't help.

I thought i threw the sign away awhile ago, it's not my fault you keep giving it back to me.

"Meph is trying to look scummy intentionally and is claiming that he's doing it just because and he's really town. Now that is horribly scummy, a flood of WIFOM and lynchable.  Oh yah, did the same thing and I should be lynched but I know myself better than that so that's ok.  Besides, I stopped so it's all cool"

That's not what i said; please go back and re-read my post. I said that Meph was giving himself a get-out-of-jail free card for any future scumminess he happens to give away, and that is what you should watch for; don't let him use that declaration that he is deliberately looking scummy to let him get away with being scummy later in the game, as he most probably will.

I fully expect to get lynched for my actions; indeed i expected to get lynched for my actions the moment i initiated that particular gambit, but i hoped to draw at least one, and hopefully a couple of scum out from hiding. unfortunately i didn't see 3 - 4 people instantly voting for me with no real reasons as i had hoped, but i did draw Toony's attention, and i think Meph just accidentally slipped up himself, that's good enough for me.



I must say, i do find it somewhat amusing that you're all willing to forgive Toony for launching attacks on people with no basis or reasoning; kudos to him for building a very airtight scum metagame.

As town, this is a dangerous attitude. Saying "It'll be him or me!" is very likely to end in 2 mislynches. And honestly, Toony isn't acting terribly scummy. Ignoring meta, he is being aggressive, and going for a particularly hard lynch.

Toony is going for a hard lynch? How in the name of all that is holy am i a hard lynch?

[Eduren]

At first it might have been an easy lynch. But according to you...

unfortunately that backfired on him

it has become alot harder for him to get away with your lynch.

[Neruz]

Well i am certainly hoping that should i be lynched and flip town that much attention will be drawn to ToonyMan, but having looked at the apparant reverential attitude most people here seem to have for him and the ease at which they dismiss the glaring faults and holes in his logic (or lack therof), i expect he will in fact be able to get away with it quite easily by simply dismissing my lynch because i looked scummy.

[Vector]

I must say, i do find it somewhat amusing that you're all willing to forgive Toony for launching attacks on people with no basis or reasoning; kudos to him for building a very airtight scum metagame.

I think this is mostly because his scum game is incredibly obvious (except possibly to Webadict, to whom it all looks the same).  What we're saying is that we know his town tells, and that we (at least I) know what he looks like as scum.

His scum metagame is far from airtight.  It just isn't what you think it is.  We don't know you, so we seem to be lynching you over him.  If it helps, I hear he got insta-quicklynched in pretty much all of his early games due to his odd behavior.  He was always town.

[Neruz]

All i'm saying is that his behaviour at the moment does not jive with what i've read in the other recent mafias when Toony was town; well that's not true, his behaviour is the same, it's the content of his posts which differs. I've read through all the paranormal mafia games, the last BYOR game and a couple of others on the front page to try and work out how Toony plays as a town, and from what i can see, he is chaotic, somewhat random, tends to focus on one target at a time and posts cohesive arguments.

At the moment, he is chaotic, somewhat random, focusing on one target at a time and is posting complete nonsense. It doesn't match up with his other recent games.


I don't think you're giving Toony enough credit; he's not stupid, if you know his scumtells, he knows them as well. If he's managed to build himself a metagame whereby nonsensical arguments are acceptable, then i have to take my hat off to him; that is every scum's dream.

[dakarian]

The Rule of conflicting attackers.

When everyone is unsure about one person but rather sure to very sure about another, you go after the Very Sure first and deal with the confusing aspects later.

Neruz, you are a flood of WIFOM, and I'm just sick of getting drunk off of you.  You like to bring in meta?  I'll bring a little of mine.  You're starting to sound like Dakarian from Beginner's Mafia 1.

I had a person I was sure was scum.  I charged head on against them, no matter how others viewed me.  Eventually, I demanded a gambit: that if I am lynched and flip town that my target would be killed after me. 

I was town then.  My target was the town Doctor.  What's more, my gambit became key to the mafia turning a heavy loss into a complete win, since I stopped the town from scumhunting them down and wore out the town into a shell of itself when lylo occured.


I now know the other side of that coin as the one listening to such a gambit.  I've all but admitted that if you flip town, it'll be the end of all of us.  That means I all but admitted that my vote on you is more out of wariness than anything else. No, I won't turn to lynch Toonyman, since your gambit means it'll be the same thing for him.


Instead, I'll take note the person many agree is scum.  That's the good side of this not being lylo: I DON'T need to drink your wine and take your gambit.  I can, instead, aim for a better target and wait until I can get a true, and proper read out of the both of you.


@Everyone

I highly, HIGHLY suggest that we leave Neruz and Toonyman alone today.  We need to wait until they stop trying to force us into a gambit before we know what to do with them. 

Instead, I ask you, when you stop lookingn at Neruz, Toonyman, and the WIFOM insanity that is the KWN situation, what makes Meph anything but scummy, based on what we know of him so far?

[Neruz]

I don't particulary mind if Toony doesn't get lynched now, so long as he does get lynched. There's no hurry yet, so it's not a problem.

[CobaltKobold]

It's funny, I was just considering the other day how one's strategy would differ depending on whether one was trying to win each game (playing the games) or trying to win all games (playing metagame). Web seems to be the one most obviously doing the latter, Meph appears claiming to do this- be apparently town/questioning (his scum meta? how'd that happen?) so that his later games he can (appear to) scumhunt and look town. (Remember, this is a subgoal for any nonjester.)

Toony HAS changed, or seemed to have changed, but is looking like he used to- except not backing up

For today though, I believe it's time for this day to end.

hammers, Litia. The town must agree on what must be done. Apparently nobody else feels like lynching Webby today either, and he doesn't seem to be paying any attention to me.

Isn't it suspicious that both days, something has come down and saved Webadict from a lynching that day? First day it's a pardon, now it's a "KWN rule"...what will it be tomorrow?

PPE: Dakarian:  1. You forgot to unvote, I think. 2. I don't put much stock in 3/4th votes in a game this size, but it was Meph and you on Neruz.

Also, that's a lovely(sarcasm) trap you've built, asking people to defend Mephansteras as "anything but scummy" and putting the burden of proof on innocence...with the fork of Defending Another Player as scummy to poison us.

[Pandarsenic]

Webadict [ಠ_ಠ] CobaltKoboold
Rashilul [2]: Eduren, Webadict
Mephansteras [1]: Apostolic Nihilist
Eduren [1]: Mr.Person
Dakarian [1]: SirBayer
Neruz [2]: ToonyMan, Cheeetar,
Org [1]: Webadict
ToonyMan [2]: Neruz, Mephansteras
Apostolic Nihilist [1]: Dakarian

Dakarian is still voting Apostolic Nihilist due to improper unvoting. I'm serious about this rule, guys.

Correct any errors just by unvoting your current target and voting whom you'd like to lynch.

[Neruz]

YOU STOLE MY SMILEY PANDAR, HOW DAR U!

[Eduren]

Webadict [ಠ_ಠ] CobaltKoboold
Rashilul []: Eduren, Webadict
Mephansteras [1]: Apostolic Nihilist
Eduren [1]: Mr.Person
Dakarian [1]: SirBayer
Neruz [2]: ToonyMan, Cheeetar,
Org [1]: Webadict
ToonyMan [2]: Neruz, Mephansteras
Apostolic Nihilist [1]: Dakarian

Dakarian is still voting Apostolic Nihilist due to improper unvoting. I'm serious about this rule, guys.

Correct any errors just by unvoting your current target and voting whom you'd like to lynch.

Look of disapproval. Nice touch.

[dakarian]

Meh.  I forgot.  Unvote-Nihilist  Vote Mephansteras

It's funny, I was just considering the other day how one's strategy would differ depending on whether one was trying to win each game (playing the games) or trying to win all games (playing metagame). Web seems to be the one most obviously doing the latter, Meph appears claiming to do this- be apparently town/questioning (his scum meta? how'd that happen?) so that his later games he can (appear to) scumhunt and look town. (Remember, this is a subgoal for any nonjester.)

That's actually not a good thing overall.  It means you are willing to hurt your present game in order to look better in future games.  It runs counter to 'Try to Win' which is a basis that keeps this game going.

Besides, Meph would be going at it the wrong way since always looking scummy just causes people to lynch you faster around here.  The proper way to look better is to, as scum and town, use your town tells.  At first, it causes players to always view you as clean.  Once they realize you use your tells both ways, they deem those tells as null. 

The best effectively play the same no matter what they are.  Web is actually at that point, as far as many are concerned.  It makes him both powerful in town and dangerous as scum. 

(though don't DARE make him Confirmed..ever)

Toony HAS changed, or seemed to have changed, but is looking like he used to- except not backing up

For today though, I believe it's time for this day to end.

hammers, Litia. The town must agree on what must be done. Apparently nobody else feels like lynching Webby today either, and he doesn't seem to be paying any attention to me.

Isn't it suspicious that both days, something has come down and saved Webadict from a lynching that day? First day it's a pardon, now it's a "KWN rule"...what will it be tomorrow?

We'll see

PPE: Dakarian:  1. You forgot to unvote, I think. 2. I don't put much stock in 3/4th votes in a game this size, but it was Meph and you on Neruz.

Good catch, though if you don't care for it, why bring it up?

Also, that's a lovely(sarcasm) trap you've built, asking people to defend Mephansteras as "anything but scummy" and putting the burden of proof on innocence...with the fork of Defending Another Player as scummy to poison us.

1. The argument against Mephansteras has been made a few times with no one to defend him.  Mostly, we've been just letting him go to hunt after someone else.  I have a post with his scan earlier that left me with a 'meh' which, in other words, means "looks very bad".  A new aspect is spotted later on by Neruz, though he presented part of the issue.  It's not just that Meph is trying to explain away his scumtells.  It's that he waited to defend scumtells that showed up early D1 until late into D2 using an argument that someone else is already making (Neruz). 

2. Arguing against a lynch isn't scummy in itself.  Mr.Person(town) did that towards me (town) to protect Alexhans (town) in Bay 12 mafia.  Others have done the same with varying effects.  Indeed, many of our scumtells involve scum who are too willing to follow townies, buddy with them, agree with them, and bandwagon with them. 

My trap is more of the reverse: I tear hard at people who quickly agree with me.  That's a major reason why I went after Zai (though that ended up being what he wanted). 


Btw, does that mean that you find me scummy because I defended Toonyman against Neruz's attack?