Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Pandarsenic]

nothing to say

rashilul = rashilul. damnit.

Else, looks like nothing has come up of terrible importance while I was out again, so I'm likely to drop off for sleep.

Pandarsenic, for the KWN rule, is it lynches-only (there weren't daykills in KWN afaik) or any daykill? I'm curious.

You don't even know what the KWN rule did.

[Rashilul]

OK GUYS, LYNCH ME SO I CAN STOP MY LYNCH.

[Rashilul]

NOW
unvote dakarian
Rashilul

[ToonyMan]

That doesn't help at all.  It would be the same as a no-lynch if you're telling the truth and wouldn't help yaddha yaddha.

[SirBayer]

His attack on me was pretty uncanny.

How do you mean by that? So far, the only reason I can see for you voting for me is because I was pressuring you. Provide some reasoning.

You too, my friend. You haven't been so great about it yourself.

Hmm. Cobalt grows ever more distressingly convincing.

Rashilul: :I

[Vector]

*siiiiigh*

Okay, that was the sound of Vector being a moron.  I thought CobaltKobold had been more involved in arguments against MagmaDeath's "Vector is scum because he is alive" in BMIV.  It turns out that I was mistaken, and my memories of his supportive behavior at the end of D4 were tainted by other events in the game.


That said, I still think he's scum based on his recent statements.  I apologize for the lack of quotations in the below; they are partially because the behaviors are rampant, and partially because it is nearly impossible to dig them out of his crunched blocks of text.


First, his current arguments are based almost entirely on meta.  Though that is not a conventional scumtell, I consider it scummy since it implies that everyone's in-game play does not seem so noteworthy to him as it does in the context of meta.

I feel, however, that I have not been entirely precise in that characterization.  It is true that he has flung many WoT recently about things that have happened in the game, but upon perusal they are largely based on statements of meta... such as that "Dakarian doesn't miss details" and "Dakarian doesn't use smileys," or perhaps that "Webadict is smarter than that as town."

If you are going to make an argument based on meta, you might do well to remember that Dakarian has more errors than perhaps any other mod in his votecounts.  We cannot say that attention to detail is his forte.

Also, Dakarian uses precisely one smiley with high frequency: 

Further, Webadict has been known to do incredibly stupid/random things as both town and scum.

The purpose of the above statements is to inform CobaltKobold that, if he is town, he would do well to reconsider his attacking style, as it is so full of holes that the only thing it will hold is viscous liquid.  Such as scum.


Second, though he addresses the WIFOM-spreading, he does not address his apparent cautiousness.  Further, all that crap about staged fights is nothing but a vat of WIFOM, and it constitutes most of his arguments against Webadict and perhaps half of the WoT against dakarian.


Third, his arguments continue to be horrifyingly flimsy.  His statement was that he was pointing out "every scummy thing as it floated by, which doesn't look very town."  This is not the issue I take with his statements.  The problem is that he argues based on (extremely old) meta and, rather than searching for scumtells, seems to have confounded himself with "not-town-tells"--i.e., nulltells.

Further, the "appeals to emotion" he has found do not constitute true appeals to emotion.  Everyone in this thread (a generalization, as I am sure someone has been lurking too much to complain) has complained about its length/ridiculousness here or elsewhere.  The "appeals to emotion" he found in me were nothing but apologies after having made grating statements.

Next, he is tunnelvisioning to force his arguments to work:

Seriously guys.  Stop the nonscum lynching.  Killing Web because's he's a prick.  Killing Shadow because he writes in 3 words for one day.  Killing Eduren even though a nolynch will mean he frys (when we get close to lylo, it'll be another matter).

So...uh...wow. Buddying on web after stagedfight.

He has no problem with the defense of eduren and SHAD0W, it seems, though of course Webadict is an issue.

Then, most of the inconsistencies and hypocrisies he "seems to have found" are actually applications of different thinking to different situations, such as calling Dakarian out for a claim request just before vigging ExKirby.  This may simply just be inflexible thinking, however, so I push this one somewhat less strongly and ask merely that he think harder before posting.


Fourth, emotional excuses about having poor memory while he can somehow pull up SirBayer's Nuclear Rocket Surgeon quote out of thin air ... from BMIV's RVS, which is not exactly what I would call memorable.  I define memorable here as an occurrence that engages the emotional brain (i.e. limbic system), as such events tend to stick in memory far better.


Fifth, there still remain inconsistencies in his arguments, which he has brushed over.  When we were still functioning under the assumption that he had indeed spoken about the doctor in BMIV, he stated that his inconsistency was reasonable given that he had started playing Mafia two weeks ago.  When I brought up the fact that he had started perhaps a month and a half ago, he completely brushed it off.

What I see here is an individual who is bending fact and, when someone brings up the fact that he is incorrect, does not correct himself, apologize, or bring up further reasoning.  He forgets the point as soon as it has been noticed, perhaps in an attempt to cause others to forget as well.


Sixth, buddying.  I refer here to the statements in his WoT which are merely stating that others agree with him, i.e. that Mr. Person and Webadict have had similar feelings about Dakarian's scummitude.  If this does not constitute buddying, I will classify it as "an overblown fear of death and attempt to get others on his team," which fits well with his sudden WoT-spewage.  It does not fit well with the behavior of a typical townie, in light of said townie's goals.




If I am incorrect about any of the above, please let me know.  I have carefully combed through the recent statements in an attempt to figure out what, precisely, was bothering me about his statements.  I can also attempt to furnish quotations if anything seems dubious, though for a post of this length and with finals coming up I don't exactly have the time.

[Cheeetar]

His attack on me was pretty uncanny.

How do you mean by that? So far, the only reason I can see for you voting for me is because I was pressuring you. Provide some reasoning.

It's quite simple really.  I lynch CobaltKobld, therefore killing off someone that could hurt you(scum) AND you get a nice target(me) for tomorrow.

How could Cobalt hurt me? Why are you a target to me?

[webadict]

Aha, THAT"S what was bothering me! Dakarian day kill! I never did understood why he decided to shoot at the beginning of day 2. If he was town, he should of shot Webadict near the end of day 1. The town wanted Webadict dead, we couldn't lynch him, the timing was perfect! Yet Dakarian decides to stay quiet. That's anti-town. Before anybody says "BUT ANTI-TOWN DON'T MEAN SCUMMY LOL", shut up. Anti-town means AGAINST the town, which means somebody we want to lynch.

Oh, and I was just convinced by the fact Dakarian spent his entire last post defending himself when he said earlier that spending an entire post defending oneself is scummy, so vote Dakarian.

... THIS!

... It would all add up, except for he'd be scum from the start.

I knew I missed something.

He didn't want to kill me because he'd look scummy, and he didn't want to bring up his power... Why didn't he?

Also, props for Vector on that WoT.

[CobaltKobold]

Okay, that was the sound of Vector being a moron.  I thought CobaltKobold had been more involved in arguments against MagmaDeath's "Vector is scum because he is alive" in BMIV.  It turns out that I was mistaken, and my memories of his supportive behavior at the end of D4 were tainted by other events in the game.

Magmadeath was the doctor, too.

That said, I still think he's scum based on his recent statements.  I apologize for the lack of quotations in the below; they are partially because the behaviors are rampant, and partially because it is nearly impossible to dig them out of his crunched blocks of text.

This doesn't look good. "He's doing these things. I won't show you. It's hard."

First, his current arguments are based almost entirely on meta.  Though that is not a conventional scumtell, I consider it scummy since it implies that everyone's in-game play does not seem so noteworthy to him as it does in the context of meta.

I feel, however, that I have not been entirely precise in that characterization.  It is true that he has flung many WoT recently about things that have happened in the game, but upon perusal they are largely based on statements of meta... such as that "Dakarian doesn't miss details" and "Dakarian doesn't use smileys," or perhaps that "Webadict is smarter than that as town."

appeals to emotion and hypocrisy are more important to my attacks than meta. If you're complaining about evidence quantities, aberrant behaviors (A2E, buddying, etc) only require one point- the act in question, rather like evidence for a flood. Meta is more like stating that "the depth of the river year-round is X" and thus will require more data points. So yes, my main argument against Web is meta, which is why he's getting lower on my scumlist, as his meta has changed since the start of the game. I mentioned this.

If you are going to make an argument based on meta, you might do well to remember that Dakarian has more errors than perhaps any other mod in his votecounts.  We cannot say that attention to detail is his forte.

That would be part of his meta as a mod. Is he a mod here? No.

Also, Dakarian uses precisely one smiley with high frequency: 

Possible, but that's a tiny fillip of my metacase. It felt off to me, so I included it.

Further, Webadict has been known to do incredibly stupid/random things as both town and scum.

My belief is that this is intentional and something that has been condemned elsewhere in the thread (throwing one game to be less susceptible to meta/be less preyed upon  for being GLORIOUS WEBADICT). This is supported by the time in which his below-avatar text was "Lost his edge..." Before that it was "Legendary Mafia player" I think.

The purpose of the above statements is to inform CobaltKobold that, if he is town, he would do well to reconsider his attacking style, as it is so full of holes that the only thing it will hold is viscous liquid.  Such as scum.

The icing my be holy, but there is still a cake beneath it.

Second, though he addresses the WIFOM-spreading, he does not address his apparent cautiousness.  Further, all that crap about staged fights is nothing but a vat of WIFOM, and it constitutes most of his arguments against Webadict and perhaps half of the WoT against dakarian.

*shrug* It's my interpretation. It's been...interesting that they've been into each other all game. Also, the nature of the fights is very odd, since each of them are throwing mostly-bad arguments against eachother. "I have a hole but I'm not telling you" for instance.

Third, his arguments continue to be horrifyingly flimsy.  His statement was that he was pointing out "every scummy thing as it floated by, which doesn't look very town."  This is not the issue I take with his statements.  The problem is that he argues based on (extremely old) meta and, rather than searching for scumtells, seems to have confounded himself with "not-town-tells"--i.e., nulltells.

Null-tells would be either known self-used tells (which are going to be town-tells). I already pointed out above that there is quite a lot of reason to go after the people I did- I started the scan without a tab for Toony, but added him because he had come up with a number of odd things.

Further, the "appeals to emotion" he has found do not constitute true appeals to emotion.  Everyone in this thread (a generalization, as I am sure someone has been lurking too much to complain) has complained about its length/ridiculousness here or elsewhere. The "appeals to emotion" he found in me were nothing but apologies after having made grating statements.

There is quite a difference between

A bigger part tells me that Wide Scanning 19 people will make me cry.  *sigh*

and, something like "Yikes, 10 pages overnight"- for instance.

Next, he is tunnelvisioning to force his arguments to work:

Seriously guys.  Stop the nonscum lynching.  Killing Web because's he's a prick.  Killing Shadow because he writes in 3 words for one day.  Killing Eduren even though a nolynch will mean he frys (when we get close to lylo, it'll be another matter).

So...uh...wow. Buddying on web after stagedfight.

He has no problem with the defense of eduren and SHAD0W, it seems, though of course Webadict is an issue.

Since webadict is higher in my scumlists than either, yes, I point it out more. I do not "have no problem" with the other buddyings, but they are patently obvious and still present in the quoted matter. Shad0w is up for replacement.

Then, most of the inconsistencies and hypocrisies he "seems to have found" are actually applications of different thinking to different situations, such as calling Dakarian out for a claim request just before vigging ExKirby.  This may simply just be inflexible thinking, however, so I push this one somewhat less strongly and ask merely that he think harder before posting.

I am pointing out that the "L-1" theory that dakarian is trying to foist on us is complete bullshit. Which is dakarian trying to apply the same thinking (as at L-1) to a different situation (daykill pointed at exkirby without, I stress, the town consensus that L-1 has).

Fourth, emotional excuses about having poor memory while he can somehow pull up SirBayer's Nuclear Rocket Surgeon quote out of thin air ... from BMIV's RVS, which is not exactly what I would call memorable.  I define memorable here as an occurrence that engages the emotional brain (i.e. limbic system), as such events tend to stick in memory far better.

The "poor memory" comments were because...I didn't remember it! In fact, I didn't remember it because...it didn't happen!
as for "nuclear rocket surgeon" engaging the emotional brain...Guess what? It did.

So, my role would be "Nuclear Rocket Surgeon."

That's...pretty catchy, actually.

Fifth, there still remain inconsistencies in his arguments, which he has brushed over.  When we were still functioning under the assumption that he had indeed spoken about the doctor in BMIV, he stated that his inconsistency was reasonable given that he had started playing Mafia two weeks ago.  When I brought up the fact that he had started perhaps a month and a half ago, he completely brushed it off.

What I see here is an individual who is bending fact and, when someone brings up the fact that he is incorrect, does not correct himself, apologize, or bring up further reasoning.  He forgets the point as soon as it has been noticed, perhaps in an attempt to cause others to forget as well.

Grasping at straws, I see. You're arguing that my "If it was my first two weeks" comment is bad because it wasn't my first two weeks. However, the point that I'm making with it- that it is still incredibly early in my mafia tenure (or whatever you want to call it)- does not hinge on that fact. So yes, I don't see it as a problem to be found as mistaken or incorrect on a fact that does not impact the game. Like, for instance, if I got your gender wrong. It would not matter for the game unless it was integral to some argument. So, a pronoun inconsistency would not be grounds for "lynch all liars".

If you want a correction, then- if SMOL counts- yes, Oct 13 = about 6 weeks. If not, then the other three games I was in that are over started a week later, so 5 weeks.

Sixth, buddying.  I refer here to the statements in his WoT which are merely stating that others agree with him, i.e. that Mr. Person and Webadict have had similar feelings about Dakarian's scummitude.  If this does not constitute buddying, I will classify it as "an overblown fear of death and attempt to get others on his team," which fits well with his sudden WoT-spewage.  It does not fit well with the behavior of a typical townie, in light of said townie's goals.

That is not buddying as I understand or intend it- it is evidence gathering for meta. and..."an overblown fear of death and attempt to get others on his team"? I classify this as an overblown attack.

If I am incorrect about any of the above, please let me know.  I have carefully combed through the recent statements in an attempt to figure out what, precisely, was bothering me about his statements.  I can also attempt to furnish quotations if anything seems dubious, though for a post of this length and with finals coming up I don't exactly have the time.

You are incorrect about most of the above.

[CobaltKobold]

Gonna be busy most of today.

[dakarian]

Ok, instead of addressing every point directly(since, when I try it, I either have to leave every quote in, making it a horrible mess of a WOT or take them out, leaving it unreadable), I'll take on the topics themselves.

So, starting back to "Dakarian Case"

1. first point destroys itself.  You make a claim about me being bloodthirsty in RVS when it's..well. RVS.  The entire point of RVS is to spark a reaction.

Also bloodthirstiness is NOT a scumtell.

2. The 'not dakarian' deal.  No, I don't act the way I did when I first started playing.  I've had half a year of postings and a large batch of ChatMafia to practice on.  I use a good deal more aggression and emotion in my games now, especially when I'm in 'pressure' mode.  Your meta is old for one thing.

Furthermore, for meta to actually WORK, you need a comparison.  You need a 'scum-dakarian' to go along with a 'town-dakarian'.  For that, you need Religious Mafia 2, KWN, and BYOR:ExKirby for a reference.  Otherwise, you're pigeonholing me into what you think 'town-dakarian' should always do.

So I call BS on your Meta claims.


3. Arguments with Web.  Creating scumteams never work out.  I learned that way back in BM1 and my times as host have proven it time after time: when you create a 'team', you never catch all of the scum in it.

The point: you can only really look at scum-on-scum interactions AFTER one of the scum is confirmed. 

That's why I linked ExKirby to Leafsnail, because Leafsnail was confirmed. 

If you want to prove that Web or myself is scum, do it on individual terms.  If you can't, you don't have scum on your hands.

4. Appeals to emotion: you aren't exactly sure what that term entails.

You appeal to emotion as a form of DEFENSE against an accusation.  Someone attacks you, you get them to emphasize with you, and they pull off.  Vector knows about this since he pulled it off on me in BM1. 

AtE isn't EVERY SINGLE COMMENT that isn't attacking someone, which is exactly what you pulled. 

5. Hypocritical

Already explained the ExKirby/Leaf vs Dakarian/Web situation.  AFTER scum is confirmed you start linking, not before.

This can also be marked as tunnelvisioning at this point.  For this argument to work you have to assume another unproven argument already works.  You've yet to proven that me and Web are scumbuddies so saying I'm Hypocritical falls flat without it.

6. Point missing:

- Ok, so I DO make mistakes.  Often.  It's the basis behind my Scans: so I can pull accurate information.

Now here's the question: how is that scummy?  For that matter, how is making mistakes 'undakarian'? 

7. My daykill

-first off, it wasn't a superkill.  Leafsnail's protection protects against NKs.  My kill was a daykill so it bypassed the protection. 

-second off, why didn't I use it on Webadict?  Same reason why I didn't vote for him.  I fought with him in Day 1 to get a read on him and what I found didn't show off scum.  When the town charged headlong into web, I read the reasons and found them lacking:


-1. His fight with me: I found him unscummy after that fight, so others seeing scum in that same fight wouldn't convince me.

-2. His attitude: I saw quite a bit of "I don't like you attitude".  It felt like a policy lynch just to 'get the jerk'.  I dislike policy lynches: lynches are for SCUM, not for jerks, or lurkers, or anti-towns, or anything else. 

Those were pretty much the main attacks against web.  With that, no, he won't get my vote and like hell he'll get my one-shot kill.

Why didn't I use it at all day 1?  Day 1 has almost no good information to work off of and I felt I'd be alive for at least that long.  Since my power goes away after Day 3, I was left either shooting on Day 2 or taking a chance on Day 3.  I took the safer route and claimed on Day 2.

Didn't work, but meh, that was the ideas I had.

8. The 'you will suit well as a lynch' bit vs Mr.Person.

I was still pressuring Mr.Person at that point.  When I was finally finished pressuring and started seeking his lynch I called him scum.

9. Telling Web to save it until lylo

He wanted a MC to use his powers on.  MCs come at lylo or close to lylo.  Thus the suggestion.  Again, he's best off just going after someone who claims instead, which can be done much earlier.

10. Third vote

You claim you don't care for it, yet you readily use it when its on me?  Funny that.



11. "One, you point out how lots of time and posts is a good thing, the other, you're complaining about it. Feels hypocritical."

Just because it's a good thing doesn't mean it's EASY to handle. 

Btw, how in the world is that scummy even IF it's true? 

12. Dakarian = Logically, with well-structured, well-researched arguments, and not appealing to emotion.

Old meta is old.

ChatMafia changed a good bit in me. 

13. The 'give scum two mislynchs'

It IS wifom.  I'm trying to give the town a free lynch.. but that's what I want you to think!

You're trying to outguess me.  That's the basis behind wifom.

Meanwhile, Mr.Person made a few assumptions when he "What the hell"ed me, which he relented on soon after.  Most of the rest of the community AGREED with the kill and ExKirby didn't exactly defend himself.  Thus, we was offed.

As far as the ExKirby situation as a whole: when I presented the argument, he first responds with a "I was away" post then this little number.

Yes. You get bent.

Seriously though, in the current condition, you're dead in two ways, on the basis that you're the only one who is aiming at me. Either you don't kill me, and the mafia kill you to remove the vig, or you kill me and everyone suspects you.

Instead of actually talking ABOUT the points, he threatens me. 

Question dodge, deflection. 

Vector commented on it afterwards

sirbayer supports it afterwards.  Toonyman dislikes his actions soon after.  Mephansteras votes for him, Eduren agrees soon after. 

You, meanwhile, weren't around the whole time and, after the daykill, you make this comment about it:

"Kills exkirby while he's asleep/asked for a replacement"

Funny, since you're so pushy about 'not getting things wrong' that you missed Exkirby responding to me with defeatism and threats rather than a defense.  A few others noticed: those above went against him BECAUSE of those statement.

So no, he wasn't asleep and he had plenty of time to defend himself.



Lastly:

They're your scummy actions-I shouldn't have to explain your actions. Explaining why they're scummy- that I'm doing. (Assuming people will grasp a concept when I display only necessary steps is a failing of mine sometimes.)

The problem is that for much of them you DON'T explain why they are scummy. A one word "that's bad" is NOT explaining yourself.  I have to guess at 'why' you thought something looked bad in order to speak about them, and at that point I'm creating the argument for you.


In fact, that's really a large batch of your arguments.  You're pulling just about everything I did that you didn't like and molding it into some mass theory based on what you think I SHOULD act like. 

I'm not the Perfect Robot Player that you think I am and frankly, I dislike the idea of getting lynched because of it.

[SirBayer]

Dak, I asked you why you thought I should be able to tell why scum didn't kill me. Haven't gotten an answer on that yet.

Cheeetar, I complained about you not giving reasons. Haven't heard comments from you on that yet.

So, Dak + Vector vs. Cobalt. I see a very limited set of possibilities. I'm sure I'm stating the obvious here, but at least for my own reference, I need to write this out.

Spoiler: Possibilities (click to show/hide)

So the possibilites are:

Cobalt: Scum
Dak + Vector: Town

Cobalt: Scum
Dak + Vector: 1 townie, 1 scum bussing or two scumbuddies bussing a third. Two 'confirmed' townies for the price of one.

Cobalt: Town
Dak + Vector: Townies <-- this is a bad possibility

Cobalt: Town
Dak + Vector: One or both scum.

So we need to find out whether Cobalt is scum or town, then analyze the attacks Dakarian and Vector are making on her. I don't doubt that someone here is trying to bus the scumbuddy, presuming Cobalt is scum. It's far too easy to just finish her off. In fact, I'm willing to bet that half or more of the scumteam is actually voting for her right now or was at some point in the recent past.

I wonder if Dakarian is the scumbuddy trying to bus. Mephansteras' confirming him as town makes sense. Alternatively, Dak and Meph are town, Vector is scum. However...

tl;dr: We need to finish off Cobalt, then determine who is scum or not. We can afford a few more unfortunate mislynches, and this lynch, mis or otherwise, will give us a LOT of information.

(If you can't figure out how I arrived at that conclusion, I apologize. I'm terrible at writing out my work.)

[ToonyMan]

His attack on me was pretty uncanny.

How do you mean by that? So far, the only reason I can see for you voting for me is because I was pressuring you. Provide some reasoning.

It's quite simple really.  I lynch CobaltKobld, therefore killing off someone that could hurt you(scum) AND you get a nice target(me) for tomorrow.

How could Cobalt hurt me? Why are you a target to me?

You = Scum
Remember?  Check your role PM.

@dakarian:

I read over your most recent post and can't find anything about the convert.

[dakarian]

@Sirbayer

Mind bringing up my statement that brought the question on?  Why would you be able to tell why scum didn't kill you?

@Toony

Unless I missed it, Cobalt didn't make much of a mention about the convert matter.

[ToonyMan]

Oh, so I don't matter?!
D:

Nah it's cool, take your time.