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[Pilsu]

Your civilization might not have made contact with neighbors at all.  Or the neighbors might have refused to sell knowledge to you, and for good reason.

And just suddenly now you're free to purchase their guarded secrets for the price of a few socks? And if you can't buy them, what's the point? Forever stuck at sub par quality items because the RNG deemed it so. Ooh, maybe sneak the secret of sockmaking from the Vomits of Circling. How would you implement that? Would it add anything but tedium into a game if every world you'd have to start with an adventurer that learns the secrets of knitting so your fort can have access to it?

I called it fake difficulty since I believe labors difficult enough to have secrets like that should feature apprenticeship by a master until proficient anyway which in turn teaches you all you need. You don't teach a novice by randomly picking stuff and showing it to him, kicking him out to a new settlement and hoping his new friends know the tricks you didn't teach. And "exceptional" doesn't necessarily imply you know all the tricks in the entire realm, it means you know the right tricks

[Footkerchief]

^^^ Ideally most civilizations would manage to discover the basic stuff on their own, or would be too dumb or trusting to hide the knowledge from their neighbors or whatever.  I'm only envisioning a couple very high level technologies remaining secret.  The game already has this hacked in -- only dwarves know how to make steel, etc.  I just want to model that in a more realistic way, and allow the possibility for other civs to acquire the knowledge as well.  You're the one who hates Mary Sue races, right?  This would be a step toward remedying that.

[Silverionmox]

For all clarity, let's forget about making the production of specific objects depend on such a system. It's purely abstract.

And just suddenly now you're free to purchase their guarded secrets for the price of a few socks?

No, you need good relations (allowing citizens to travel freely across the border), and transferring the skill requires the time to train a dwarf, and he would typically pay with his labor for the duration of the training. It's not a state secret, because all craftsmen in a fortress are supposed to have access to that knowledge.

And if you can't buy them, what's the point?

Buying doesn't magic knowledge from one place to the other, nor is it the kind of knowledge you can write down on a piece of parchment, like the formula of gunpowder. Transferring know-how requires the transfer of skilled people. To convince that master blacksmith to leave his succesful business over in the mountain halls to come to your hole in the ground, you should have to make an effort.

Forever stuck at sub par quality items because the RNG deemed it so.

They aren't sub par; they're the best that are available, and the happy thoughts should reflect that. Don't forget that items without modifiers are standard, anything above that is a plus.
If you're playing to max out the numbers that's fine, but why should that be guaranteed to be quick, easy and available without particular effort?

Ooh, maybe sneak the secret of sockmaking from the Vomits of Circling. How would you implement that? Would it add anything but tedium into a game if every world you'd have to start with an adventurer that learns the secrets of knitting so your fort can have access to it?

No, send a dwarf to live at the Vomits of Circling, with a secret mission to steal trade secrets. He'll return with the secrets after a few years if all goes well. Alternatively, improve your relations with the Vomits, or with the clothiers there, or attack them and capture one, etc.

I called it fake difficulty since I believe labors difficult enough to have secrets like that should feature apprenticeship by a master until proficient anyway which in turn teaches you all you need.

So a body of knowledge in a particular fortress is either universal and exhaustive, or completely absent?

You don't teach a novice by randomly picking stuff and showing it to him, kicking him out to a new settlement and hoping his new friends know the tricks you didn't teach.

He can learn everything his fortress knows about the craft, which isn't everything that could possibly known about it.

And "exceptional" doesn't necessarily imply you know all the tricks in the entire realm, it means you know the right tricks

If an item is of exceptional quality, that means that most items are worse.


The whole idea is to make dwarven civs and fortresses more diverse, and give them a local culture. It's a way to simulate the exchange and ideas and the spread of knowledge.

[Pilsu]

Buying doesn't magic knowledge from one place to the other, nor is it the kind of knowledge you can write down on a piece of parchment, like the formula of gunpowder. Transferring know-how requires the transfer of skilled people. To convince that master blacksmith to leave his succesful business over in the mountain halls to come to your hole in the ground, you should have to make an effort.

I was thinking more on the lines of purchasing tutoring for your guys, not writing down "bang the metal like this!" on a piece of paper over and over

If it was that easy, why hadn't anyone done it before and thus confer the knowledge to your civ?

Don't forget that items without modifiers are standard, anything above that is a plus.

Got any reason to believe shitty items should be the norm beyond the RNG being unable to make -items- and +items+ for everybody? These things are hand crafted, poor quality is not the reasonable norm


The notion that you can't learn all you need from a good guild approved blacksmith doesn't sit right with me. After that it's a matter of practice. Collecting scraps of knowledge from dozens of small villages to become the best smith evar is a bit video gamey. Who's to say the master that provided you with tutelage didn't already teach you the best tricks? Why do you need every damn useless outdated piece of information from every village blacksmith in the civ to become really good?

[Silverionmox]

Buying doesn't magic knowledge from one place to the other, nor is it the kind of knowledge you can write down on a piece of parchment, like the formula of gunpowder. Transferring know-how requires the transfer of skilled people. To convince that master blacksmith to leave his succesful business over in the mountain halls to come to your hole in the ground, you should have to make an effort.

I was thinking more on the lines of purchasing tutoring for your guys, not writing down "bang the metal like this!" on a piece of paper over and over

If it was that easy, why hadn't anyone done it before and thus confer the knowledge to your civ?

Because it takes time, effort and opportunity. Travel is slow and dangerous. Civilizations are few and far between. And the world exists for barely two centuries, in most cases.

Don't forget that items without modifiers are standard, anything above that is a plus.

Got any reason to believe shitty items should be the norm beyond the RNG being unable to make -items- and +items+ for everybody? These things are hand crafted, poor quality is not the reasonable norm

The notion that you can't learn all you need from a good guild approved blacksmith doesn't sit right with me. After that it's a matter of practice. Collecting scraps of knowledge from dozens of small villages to become the best smith evar is a bit video gamey. Who's to say the master that provided you with tutelage didn't already teach you the best tricks? Why do you need every damn useless outdated piece of information from every village blacksmith in the civ to become really good?

-Items- and +items+ already are above the norm, by definition. Right now it's impossible to make shoddy XXitemsXX.

It's possible to learn everything from a normal blacksmith in your fortress: the dwarf will be able to make all items and they will function, no problem. That doesn't mean that he knows how to do everything in the fastest, cheapest, most beautiful, elegant and effective way.

The distribution of knowledge at the beginning of a game would be important, of course. All pieces of knowledge should be put somewhere, I think. Small villages will normally not have rare trade secrets, because their smiths learned their trade at a larger settlement in their civ. So normally there won't be much, if any, difference within a civ. I would expect a normal dwarven civ to have 2/3 or 3/4 of the bits turned on, randomly: that means that their smiths would be able to advance to high master or so. If they put in some effort in cultivating good relationships with other civs, or do industrial espionage, etc., they might learn some new tricks and get an edge over other civs.

[Memestream]

In the world of Dwarf Fortress, practice seems to make perfect. That is to say, there do not seem to be any trade secrets to learn...

[Pilsu]

Because it takes time, effort and opportunity

"Here, have some socks! ^^"

Yeah, that was difficult. No wonder no one conveniently tried it before

And the world exists for barely two centuries, in most cases.

Yeah, like our world began at year 0. Oh wait

-Items- and +items+ already are above the norm, by definition.

Yeah and I already stated why, because the bloody generator doesn't know how to add quality levels to NPC equipment. Are you really implying handcrafted items can't be expected to be "Well-crafted" or "Finely-crafted?" Even the randomly spawned NPCs in villages could make -items- 32% of the time

[Silverionmox]

Because it takes time, effort and opportunity

"Here, have some socks! ^^"
Yeah, that was difficult. No wonder no one conveniently tried it before

To be able to say: "Here, take some socks", you'd first have to find out where the other civs is, establish relations, determine whether they have useful craftsmen, open negotiations, reach an agreement - and do what it takes to get them to agree -, and successfully execute it. All of that with on foot.

And the world exists for barely two centuries, in most cases.

Yeah, like our world began at year 0. Oh wait

The DF world does, in any case.

-Items- and +items+ already are above the norm, by definition.

Yeah and I already stated why, because the bloody generator doesn't know how to add quality levels to NPC equipment. Are you really implying handcrafted items can't be expected to be "Well-crafted" or "Finely-crafted?" Even the randomly spawned NPCs in villages could make -items- 32% of the time

And they still can - I said that could start with 2/3 or 3/4 of the tricks known, which would allow them to advance to master or a level or two beyond. You'll still get masterworks and exceptional items that way, just not that much. Even if you completely ignore it, sooner or later an immigrant from another civ will come along (after the appropriate arc) and bring a trick or two that you didn't know.

Regarding quality levels, all depends on where you put the standard. Markless items are standard, AFAIAC, sub-standard items just aren't implemented yet, except as worn items. If =exceptional= items were meant to be common, they wouldn't be named exceptional. A fortress should be perfectly playable with only normal or -items-. They are fully functional after all.

[Pilsu]

No brackets items are terrible quality, barely functional. Are you seriously saying that hand crafted items can be expected to not even be "well made?" Just because it doesn't explicitly say shoddy in the title doesn't mean it's good. It's below "well-crafted", it's obviously crappy to some degree. Insinuating that handiwork has no standards is insulting

You didn't really address why I can't make exceptional items with the knowledge I already have. I don't need to know everything to be able to reach some imaginary quality standard. My handiwork can be exceptional without knowing all the techniques in the world

I really don't see why I couldn't make an exceptional or masterwork table without scouring the lands for useless tidbits of information


No one before you tried to establish diplomatic relations and do all that before you? Convenient. Much easier to pretend information is exchanged when the player is explicitly forced to do so himself


As for "world was created at year zero", that relies pretty heavily on you taking the generator at face value. I consider it fairly laughable since it implies dwarves just come to existence with the knowledge of steel. Mind you, if they just pop into existence with knowledge, why would they even need to learn more from the humans? Did the random number god just "accidentally" give them 2/3 dots in their knowledge sheet? Yeah, that makes sense. Spawn civilizations with knowledge of steel but not actual knowledge of metalworking beyond shitty items. That doesn't even make sense

[Silverionmox]

No brackets items are terrible quality, barely functional. Are you seriously saying that hand crafted items can be expected to not even be "well made?" Just because it doesn't explicitly say shoddy in the title doesn't mean it's good. It's below "well-crafted", it's obviously crappy to some degree. Insinuating that handiwork has no standards is insulting

You didn't really address why I can't make exceptional items with the knowledge I already have. I don't need to know everything to be able to reach some imaginary quality standard. My handiwork can be exceptional without knowing all the techniques in the world

I really don't see why I couldn't make an exceptional or masterwork table without scouring the lands for useless tidbits of information

I gave an example of an ordinary dwarven civ: a craftsdwarf there could be expected to reach the "master" levels. These guys produce mostly superior or exceptional items, with the occasional masterwork. I don't see where you get the idea that you somehow wouldn't be able to produce exceptional items.

Barely functional items are exactly what you can expect of someone who just starts out in the skill. But that's already so, I don't see what that has to do with the concept of non-generic skills.

No one before you tried to establish diplomatic relations and do all that before you? Convenient. Much easier to pretend information is exchanged when the player is explicitly forced to do so himself. As for "world was created at year zero", that relies pretty heavily on you taking the generator at face value.

If I look at the civilizations screen, the other civs only show up when they arrive at my fortress to trade. So I have all reason to believe there was no contact beforehand. Of course, civs should do that in worldgen, but I think that's something for the diplomacy arc - which would include open border or skill exchange agreements.

I consider it fairly laughable since it implies dwarves just come to existence with the knowledge of steel. Mind you, if they just pop into existence with knowledge, why would they even need to learn more from the humans? Did the random number god just "accidentally" give them 2/3 dots in their knowledge sheet? Yeah, that makes sense.Spawn civilizations with knowledge of steel but not actual knowledge of metalworking beyond shitty items. That doesn't even make sense

I repeat, such civs would be easily able to reach high master in metalworking. What's your take then anyway? Spawn civilizations that know everything about metalworking they could possibly know from day 1, with exactly the same procedures as everyone else in the world, even though they have never seen them?

"Shitty items" is your interpretation. They're fully functional. If standard items are unacceptably low quality, why would anyone ever make them if it's so easy to do better?
I think that you're rather fixated on that particular interpretation of this particular stage in the game development. Quality levels will change. There might be more, there might be less, it might become a fluent scale. They will almost certainly be renamed. Production speed will change. Skill gain rates will change. Mood occurence will change. Being able to obtain one perfect craftsdwarf for every skill in barely a decade, starting with two picks and a barrel of plump helmets, is ridiculous.

The whole purpose of the idea is to simulate different traditions and ideas in different parts of the world, and between races. Expeditions to other continents might teach some new techniques, allowing your smiths to produce better stuff than anyone else on you home continent. Humans could get only 1/3 or so of bits, which would make it highly desirable for them to send someone to the dwarves to learn something more. The dwarves would have their price, etc. etc. I think that makes the game more interesting.

[Granite26]

We don't have any real scale for functionality other than the fact that normal items (no bracket) are considered the baseline for functionality.

I have trouble considering the 'baseline' to be poor quality.

[Tigershark13]

hmm i've always considered the 'standard' quality things to be like the Bevel Rim Bowls of the Ancient middle east, not pretty, not beautiful, produced by the thousands (though still hand made) requiring little skill but FUNCTIONAL for what they need to do...

[Pilsu]

Picture an ashtray made by a 4 year old. Yeah, it works..

[Tigershark13]

uhm... no more something like this

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

its ugly, looks like it was made by sombody with very little skill, but its not designed for a rich person, its designed so that rations can be given out and somebody can eat.

As opposed to perhaps Samian ware created in ancient Rome, designed to be high quality pottery that you would show off to people (looked like this)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Just because a good is considered 'low quality' doesn't mean a trader wouldn't buy it, sometimes its necessary to buy allot of poor quality goods so that the poorer people can buy them off you. The high quality stuff would require more than just constant practice to make, you'd need instruction. Hence the fact its valuable. If anyone could make that samien ware there just by shelling out lots of lower quality ones, the stuff would have been worthless despite its beauty. It makes sense that you'd need a 'master' of some kind.

[Pilsu]

Poor or not, that pot is almost worthless. You can make stuff that crappy yourself. No one's going to pay for that unless they're absolutely dirt poor and well, these are caravans. Peddling crap doesn't even cover your costs if you have to trek cross country

Baseline for merchant goods should be at the very least well- to finely crafted. Anything else makes no sense and insults craftsmen everywhere


Apprenticeship has already been talked to death and then some