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[Aquillion]

Did anyone ever play Sid Meier's Colonization?  In it, most of the people your colonies attracted were unskilled laborers and indentured servants.  However, you had the option of paying a large sum of money to essentially 'hire' skilled people like schoolteachers and blacksmiths.

It is really, really annoying when your fortress only has a few highly-skilled dwarves in some essential skill, and they die.  So...  why not have a noble who lets you make requests for highly-skilled dwarves, by paying some massive signing bonus or providing some specific items they request?  This could actually be done through the trade guild dwarves...  I don't think it should be easy or available early on, but it would help reduce frustration a lot in the late game.

It could work a bit like this:  Once you have a dwarf from a noble representative from a particular trade guild, he provides a screen where you can see a list of 'available' highly-skilled dwarves in the skills that that guild covers.  Each of those dwarves would have a set of demands they want satisfied before they'll come to your fortress...  for example, one might want X green glass items, a gold crown, and X amount of cash.  Think of them a bit like nobles, but you have to satisfy their demands just to get them to come; you offer them the necessary objects on the guild-noble screen, and they claim them when they arrive.  (If something has happened to the objects between when you make the offer and when they arrive, of course, they're going to go ballistic.)

What do you think?  It would give the player another set of demands, but optional ones, with a reward of a skilled dwarf if they satisfy them.  It would also provide the player with a way to recover quickly if a skilled dwarf dies.

[ September 24, 2007: Message edited by: Aquillion ]

[Tamren]

I suggested this earlier as well, its a good system.

Its easy to imagine too. If you have a representative for the "crafting guild" in your fortress, it would be easy to ask him to attract new members. You could also impose restrictions, like no married couples, no couples with children.

What about skill levels? A new open fortress would be paradise for unskilled dwarves looking for a place to live. But i guess you would have to give a few incentives more more skilled dwarves.

[mickel]

I'm behind the idea. Those representatives better do something useful for all their whining.

[Fieari]

Hm.  Immigration happens according to wealth.  It's far too easy to get wealth, or at least, far too easy to get the kind of wealth immigrant dwarves are looking for.

So I suggest a couple things.  First of all, add some inflation... that is, decrease the perceived value of goods as dwarves see it (no need to do this on the fly at the moment).  Second of all, make -different dwarves value different items differently-.

Peasants should look at everything.  They want a better life, and if you have goods, you can probably provide a better life.  They would act just as they do now.

Dwarves that create goods... craftsdwarves, masons, carpenters, smiths, etc, should value the type of item they create, as well as any tools they use (so smiths would value anvils).  Having a lot, and a valuable lot, of goods of their type likely means more work for them, and even if not, there's likely some skilled members of that profession that either have or would like to start a guild, and maybe you could get some instruction from them.

Military dwarves should be looking at money, weapons, and armor.  They should want to get paid, and they should want to be well equipped.  Having champions should also impress them...

..In fact, I would say that having legendary of any profession should count MORE than wealth.

And so on and so forth.  My point being, dwarves aren't coming to you with demands, unless they're noble, they're coming to you with -hopes-.

[Memestream]

My point being, dwarves aren't coming to you with demands, unless they're noble, they're coming to you with -hopes-.

It's definitely open to interpretation, but I would imagine that highly skilled craftsdwarves hold a high enough place in society to make some of their own demands. Much in the way that skilled white collar workers are able to in markets devoid of their skill set are able to today. Of course, I realize that DF isn't as highly modernized of a world as we live in, but my understanding is that skilled smiths, scholars, and artists were highly prized vassals by nobles in ages past, and received a good number of benefits for their valued talents.

[Granite26]

I dunno, I think DF is drawing a lot from historical gold and silver rushes.  Come here! Get Rich Quick!

[mickel]

I wouldn't mind seeing the ability to request certain immigrants, it makes sense to me. When the correct conditions are met, of course. On the other hand I get a strange amount of skilled labor as immigrants. I have no idea why skilled gem cutters and weapon smiths would want to leave a life in relative comfort to go live in a hole in the ground that hasn't even been dug yet. I know if I were an expert at making armor, I would tend to go to a place that has, well... the infrastructure to make armor. Not a six by six by six pit in the sod somewhere in the middle of an elf-infested woods with a stream running through it. Not without a lot of encouragement.

[Pilsu]

Proficient (journeyman) people should probably be available without bribery. It's the masters you'd need to pay for if you wanted them to stay. Guild members tend to already have a respected position, it should be quite expensive to get one. Tutelage less so


Your average immigrant being a peasant by default would be nice. Don't really want frivolous skills in my troops'/laborers' skill list

[mickel]

Agreed. After all, part of being a journeyman is going around to different masters and learning from them. Of course, that requires a master to learn from. Perhaps they might require some coaxing before they'll go someplace without one? Then again, not all craftsdwarves might be interested in studying and getting better. Journeymen who are happy with being on that level might not mind at all going someplace without competition.

[Granite26]

Agreed. After all, part of being a journeyman is going around to different masters and learning from them. Of course, that requires a master to learn from. Perhaps they might require some coaxing before they'll go someplace without one? Then again, not all craftsdwarves might be interested in studying and getting better. Journeymen who are happy with being on that level might not mind at all going someplace without competition.

Not that I dislike the ideas, but aren't you conflating 'Master' as a skill level and 'Master' as a guild determined rank?

[mickel]

Agreed. After all, part of being a journeyman is going around to different masters and learning from them. Of course, that requires a master to learn from. Perhaps they might require some coaxing before they'll go someplace without one? Then again, not all craftsdwarves might be interested in studying and getting better. Journeymen who are happy with being on that level might not mind at all going someplace without competition.

Not that I dislike the ideas, but aren't you conflating 'Master' as a skill level and 'Master' as a guild determined rank?

They are the same. You were awarded the rank of master by the guild when you had achieved sufficient skill. I suppose you could be at a master skill level without accepting the rank of master, but I don't see why anyone would, given the social status and significant increase in income. I do see how anyone would want to do the opposite and become ranked master without having the skill, and I guess if you have the leverage in terms of bribes, blackmail or clout, I guess you could do that too. But exceptions aside they go together. Master skill level equals master guild rank.

[Granite26]

But exceptions aside they go together. Master skill level equals master guild rank.

Seriously?

OK, I'll let that one slide.
There is all sorts of reasons why a large, potentially corupt organization might not confer master status on someone who had the skills.

Corruption
Poor Testing Practices (Must produce a masterwork?  Not true in DF, at least)
Non-determinate hoops (Must get masters to sign off)
Protectionism (Too many Masters pushing down prices?  We'll stop naming new ones)

etc

[mickel]

Definitely, and I'm sure all those things existed. Corrupt and protectionist guilds in particular. Imagine all the petrol station owners in the city being part of a fraternity which would meet and set prices and determine how many petrol stations were allowed in the city, and how much petrol they would be allowed to sell. That's a guild for you. I don't know about dwarfs, but humans would sure be corrupted by that kind of power. 

Imagine the same thing on a national scale and you have an unregulated free market.

Okay, that was mean.

[Memestream]

Your average immigrant being a peasant by default would be nice. Don't really want frivolous skills in my troops'/laborers' skill list

I kind of would prefer this as opposed to how it currently works as well.

[Skynet 2.0]

Dwarves that create goods... craftsdwarves, masons, carpenters, smiths, etc, should value the type of item they create, as well as any tools they use (so smiths would value anvils).  Having a lot, and a valuable lot, of goods of their type likely means more work for them, and even if not, there's likely some skilled members of that profession that either have or would like to start a guild, and maybe you could get some instruction from them.

If someone already had a large amount of crafts, then they would most likely already have all of the craftsmen they needed, and any additional ones wouldn't be very useful. I think it would be better if they looked for the amount of workshops of their trade skill, and compare it to the amount of that kind of dwarf you had. That way, if you needed some more craftsdwarves to get rid of an excess of stone or such, you would just build several extra Craftsdwarf's Workshops, and then, in the next immigrant wave, more would come than normal. Then, when you had about as many craftsdwarves as workshops, they would stop coming unless you build some more workshops. Still, this might provide too much control over the immigration to the players.

I like the idea of being able to hire specific workers more. Maybe that could be a new screen in the dwarven caravan? You select the kind of worker you need, and a skill level, between novice and proficient, with higher skill levels being more expensive. Then, the workers you requested would arrive with next year's caravan, rather than the immigrant wave. There would be a limit on the amount of people you could hire, at around 5 or so per year.