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[Jude]

Jude wrote

Do Americans think about that stuff? No. because 90% of us are idiotic, self-centered dimwits who unfortunately have the world's most over-bloated military doing things in their name, and LIKE IT. And then they wonder why people decide to blow up their airplanes and buildings and military bases like it's just a total mystery that nobody could ever figure out.

I am amazed at this.  Jude, you appear to have an incredible amount of rage towards your own country.

Uh yeah dude. Do you have any idea of the amount of horrible things that the US has been doing for the past half a century, with the public's tax money to boot? Soooooo many awful dictatorships supported, democratic governments overthrown, people assassinated, wars started, it goes on and on. And all while talking about spreading peace and democracy too! If you're going to be a brutal empire, at least admit it.

  Based on your comments, the rage must go back for 25+ years or more (considering your "blow up ... military bases" remark, which I took as to mean this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Beirut_barracks_bombing).  When did this start for you?

Well I haven't been around for 25 years or more, I was referring to attacks on our soldiers in Iraqistan. It started about when, oh, somebody blew up the twin towers and instead of trying to figure out why somebody might be pissed enough to do that, the entire country decided the best way to fix the problem of people hating us was to invade Afghanistan! Great idea, I mean every time America has sent troops into a country full of people that hate us with hostile terrain and a bad history, it's turned out great right?

Americans were all about this, it's hard to remember now, but everybody was screaming for revenge. Of course, they didn't call it revenge (well some did) they called it getting rid of al-Qaeda (not that we understood what the hell al-Qaeda was all about or how to get rid of them) and bringing democracy to Afghanistan, but nobody gave a shit about those things until we got attacked and everybody wanted revenge. They sure didn't care that we were starting a war, and they definitely didn't care that people die in wars. As far as these people know, about 5000 people have died in Iraq - namely, the American soldiers we hear about on the news. Nobody gives a shit about the hundreds of thousands of people, mostly just everyday citizens, that have gotten killed for our dumbass crusade.

So yeah, it goes back to when we invaded Afghanistan, when I realized we were a country full of bloodthirsty maniacs. And then back to when we invaded Iraq, when I realized we were a country full of bloodthirsty maniacs that just enjoyed the thought of blowing up brown people, even when they lived in a place that had absolutely nothing to do with the people that attacked us in the first place. Bloodthirsty maniacs at worst I guess, ignorant morons at best, since nobody cared about the fact that we basically ruined two entire countries and made them barely livable, not to mention killing huge amounts of their population. If Americans weren't so ignorant and would actually go to the trouble of seeing what it's like over there thanks to our helpful invasions

well anyway I'm ranting now. But yeah that's why I have a problem with America. An entire country screaming for blood with the world's biggest military at their command? Yeah, what a great thing

[IndonesiaWarMinister]

Heh.

Uncalled for... right...

:|

At least we all know that our GODDAMNED current PRESI-DIE-NT is a puppet of AmericaTM

[Gorjo MacGrymm]

@jude - i am not going to argue wth you about the necesities of fighting in Afganistan, or wether or not i knew that the Taliban needed eradication far earlier then 9/11.  We obviously have polar opposite views.  I also will not argue with you about civilian deaths in iraq.  Its terrible that so many Iraqi's were killed by other Iraqi's, Syrians, Iranians, Jordanians, Afghans, Pakistani's, Saudi's and Egyptians.  i understand that the US is also responsible.  It is impossible to avoid civilian death in such a conflict.  It is a horrific tradegy and should not be minimized or ignored in any way.  And of course, the iraqis hated the US.  I mean its not like they celebrated in the streets when the US showed up.......oh, wait, they did.  Oh, I remember, they celebrated our leaving.......oh wait, no, they are hopeful for their future but terrified that if we leave they will be again killed by the see above (sadly, with the bombs this week, its obvious they are right).  i am not going to argue with you about how 95% of Afghans (the ones who arent throwing acid in childrens faces) want the US to stay and fight.  i am not even going to argue with you about how the US has one of the smallest modern militaries in the world.  I am not going to argue because I think we cannot possibly have honest discourse on these issues.

[Maggarg - Eater of chicke]

Everyone is a bastard. Everyone blows up everyone else. The world is like a heavy metal song without the dragons.

[Dvergar]

I was referring to attacks on our soldiers in Iraqistan

Really?  Where do you find that on the map    Quoted

Everyone is a bastard. Everyone blows up everyone else. The world is like a heavy metal song without the dragons.

Quoted

[profit]

I have to admit, I am surprised our president showed the restraint to not use Thermonuclear Sterilization of all land within 600 radial miles of Mecca.

Would have been a lot cheaper though if he did..  They are excessively cheap weapons to manufacture...

[Neruz]

It could probably have been becausing using nuclear weapons is seriously reprehensible and completely unacceptable?

[Jude]

@jude - i am not going to argue wth you about the necesities of fighting in Afganistan, or wether or not i knew that the Taliban needed eradication far earlier then 9/11.  We obviously have polar opposite views.  I also will not argue with you about civilian deaths in iraq.  Its terrible that so many Iraqi's were killed by other Iraqi's, Syrians, Iranians, Jordanians, Afghans, Pakistani's, Saudi's and Egyptians.  i understand that the US is also responsible.  It is impossible to avoid civilian death in such a conflict.  It is a horrific tradegy and should not be minimized or ignored in any way.  And of course, the iraqis hated the US.  I mean its not like they celebrated in the streets when the US showed up.......oh, wait, they did.  Oh, I remember, they celebrated our leaving.......oh wait, no, they are hopeful for their future but terrified that if we leave they will be again killed by the see above (sadly, with the bombs this week, its obvious they are right).  i am not going to argue with you about how 95% of Afghans (the ones who arent throwing acid in childrens faces) want the US to stay and fight.  i am not even going to argue with you about how the US has one of the smallest modern militaries in the world.  I am not going to argue because I think we cannot possibly have honest discourse on these issues.

Well I'm glad you're such an expert on what the Iraqi and Afghan people want  Thanks for letting me know, I'll have to pass on your extremely valid statistics to the next pissed off Iraqi I meet.

Where are you getting that information? Who have you met from those countries? None of the ones I've met are happy about being occupied, and nobody else in the middle east is happy about it. Also, your views of the situation are so nuanced and well-researched that I'm sure the state and defense departments would love to have your help. Then again, I guess not, since the wars were obviously planned by people whose grasp of the countries in question was about as good as yours.

[Dvergar]

Then again, I guess not, since the wars were obviously planned by people whose grasp of the countries in question was about as good as yours.

I highly doubt that.....

P.S.  Every soldier I have ever talked to said that the Iraqi/Afghani population was extremely hospitable except for a couple who threw insults via turning their backs to the soldiers while they patrolled....  Some even have stories of American lives being saved because the people were willing to tip the soldiers off about attacks/bombs

You certainly seem to be playing the expert as well Jude, all I see is your word vs. nearly everybody else's....

[Neruz]

While there were a few serious intelligence failures, America did have a pretty good idea of what it was doing and how to do it, and the road wasn't exactly smooth, but they did achieve most of their objectives.

The problem, as usual, occured when the politicians got involved; almost a textbook repeat of Vietnam.

[Gorjo MacGrymm]

Jude said

Well I haven't been around for 25 years or more

and then i realized my folly, but far far far too late.

I bow to your youthful intellect over my veteran service and experience.

[Jude]

I was referring to attacks on our soldiers in Iraqistan

Really?  Where do you find that on the map    Quoted

lol, I didn't feel like typing "Iraq and Afghanistan" for a third time.

I bow to your youthful intellect over my veteran service and experience.

And I bow to your vast knowledge of the countries we're occupying, given that it's your attitude that's led us to the great, successful blooming republics they're becoming today! Obviously me being younger than you means I have less of an understanding of the world, since you're of the school of thought that if Americans just march in places and put themselves in charge, everything will work itself out, and anybody who doesn't like it is obviously scum. That great school has been bringing joy and happiness to countries all over the world for the past couple decades, after all.

Seriously, the arrogance of Americans is appalling and people still wonder why everyone hates us? Christ, we went into Iraq having no idea what the difference was between a Sunni and a Shi'a Muslim or between an Arab and a Kurd. We went into Afghanistan with people probably not knowing that it wasn't an Arab country. The people who decided to start those wars were ignorant enough, and the average American citizen is far, far worse. And you're telling me we should go around putting ourselves in charge of countries? Even without two extremely instructive examples to make my point for me, it would be ridiculous for you to argue that we should.

God, I can't wait till this country runs its course and gets surpassed by China, just for the sake of Americans finally realizing they don't know jack about the rest of the world and can't mold it into whatever shape they please.

[Neruz]

we went into Iraq having no idea what the difference was between a Sunni and a Shi'a Muslim or between an Arab and a Kurd. We went into Afghanistan with people probably not knowing that it wasn't an Arab country.

The average American citizen probably doesn't know the difference, but i assure you the people involved in planning the campaigns most certainly do.



I feel i should add that Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq have all foundered post-invasion due to outdated post-invasion doctrine. Alot of the American military doctrine on 'what to do when you've invaded someone' is left over from World War II and is, unsurprisingly, neither region nor date appropriate.

[Gorjo MacGrymm]

Jude:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

your attacks expose your immaturity.  your raging against things not even in discussion portrays your vast predisposition towards events.  your entire argument isnt based on your grasp of facts, but on your need to hate the US.  You repeatedly call everyone in the US stupid, hope for its downfall and think everyone in places of authority are incompetent.  While those assumptions are good comedic fodder, any free thinking person would know that it is really in jest, and that the people actually forming policy are by and large very intelligent and extremely educated towards their profession - no matter their race/sex/religion/political affiliation/etc.  Your quote from Aqizzar is a prime example.  I only assume you take GWB and his entire staff including the pentagon to be truly uneducated low-iq semi functional people.  When someone says "administration", were talking about, literally, thousands and thousands of people.  If you do not actually believe this, then i ask you, why do you keep stating/implying it?  If someone were to take "USA" out of your posts and replace it with any race, you would sound like a blathering, hate-mongering lunatic.

On topic:
My opinion would be that American/Western morality precludes it from doing what is realistically necessary to rebuild a country (unless your France and its Africa.....ok, that was uncalled for, but I laughed).  And by that I mean, eradicate any opposition, thus allowing for the opportunity to rebuild.  America simply wont revert to the battle axe. 

[Neruz]

It depends on what you mean by 'rebuild'.