Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9

Author Topic: Opinions on the Middle Eastern Conflict  (Read 13268 times)

Cthulhu

  • Bay Watcher
  • A squid
    • View Profile
Re: Opinions on the Middle Eastern Conflict
« Reply #105 on: October 31, 2009, 07:41:52 am »

Doesn't the whole "If the government were evil enough to kill thousands of its own citizens to gain a cassus belli they would have no qualms about silencing the Loose Change guys before their video spread" thing kind of throw a wrench in the 9/11 Conspiracy works?
Logged
Shoes...

Neruz

  • Bay Watcher
  • I see you...
    • View Profile
Re: Opinions on the Middle Eastern Conflict
« Reply #106 on: October 31, 2009, 07:46:31 am »

What throws a wrench in the 9/11 conspiracy works is the same thing that throws a wrench in all conspiracy works: Too many people are involved.

The more people that are require to be involved in a plan, the higher the chance one of them will mess up and the media will find out about it, we've seen it time and time again, in fact the rare few instances where this have not happened are memorable and countable on one's fingers (D-Day being the crowning achievement in that area).


If the 9/11 attacks were a conspiracy by the American Government, we would know about it by now. You cannot keep that kind of thing secret for long, especially something as appalling and atrocious as those attacks.

Also, if the 9/11 attacks were a conspiracy the the entire Government needs to be congratulated on some of the best acting the world has ever seen and a level of competancy that far exceeds all prior and future conduct.

kuro_suna

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Opinions on the Middle Eastern Conflict
« Reply #107 on: October 31, 2009, 12:58:13 pm »

What throws a wrench in the 9/11 conspiracy works is the same thing that throws a wrench in all conspiracy works: Too many people are involved.

Also thats its the Bush administration, the more likely conspiracy theory is someone spilled juice on the CIA intelligence report regarding Al Qaeda global activity.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2009, 01:00:39 pm by kuro_suna »
Logged

Neruz

  • Bay Watcher
  • I see you...
    • View Profile
Re: Opinions on the Middle Eastern Conflict
« Reply #108 on: October 31, 2009, 07:06:35 pm »

What throws a wrench in the 9/11 conspiracy works is the same thing that throws a wrench in all conspiracy works: Too many people are involved.

Also thats its the Bush administration, the more likely conspiracy theory is someone spilled juice on the CIA intelligence report regarding Al Qaeda global activity.

Pff, nobody needed to do that; Al Qaeda was not seen as a threat, they were seen as a guerilla terrorist force that would be dangerous in the Middle East, but posed no threat to the US. And why would they assume that Al Qaeda was a threat to the US? The US Mainland had never previously fallen under attack and Al Qaeda was a secretive two-bit terrorist organisation, you trying to tell me half a dozen religion-crazed islamist jihadis are a danger to the United States of America? Puh-leez.

As it turned out, Al Qaeda were actually extremely efficient, well trained and knew the US intelligence gathering systems inside and out (as they had recieved training in those exact systems previously in Afghanistan). Al Qaeda operated quickly, they operated quietly and they took full advantage of the lag in intelligence gathering and processing; Osama knew, for example, that it would take more than 2 days to process any data gathered on him into intelligence, so he called his, mother i think, on 7/11 to tell her that something big was going down in two days. The US picked up this call instantly and it was shuffled off to the correct departments, but it took more than 2 days to process; 2 days later the planes flew into the towers and the information was still sitting on a desk, waiting to be processed.

Al Qaeda were extremely professional, knew exactly what they were doing, played outside the rules (and that's important) and knew how to play the US Defence systems.


Suggesting it's the CIA's fault is rediculous; not only were the intelligence divisions in the US chaotic and terribly organised (and indeed they still are) the only way they could have found out about Sept 11 would have been if they were operating on war-time footing, with forced co-operation between all agencies, central pooling of information and greatly increased people counts to do grunt work like processing information. But the US was not at war, and so unsurprisingly they were operating on peace-time footing, rather tha war-time footing.

Gorjo MacGrymm

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Opinions on the Middle Eastern Conflict
« Reply #109 on: October 31, 2009, 11:27:03 pm »

Hey 9/11 conspiracy theorists:  watch this show and weep.  The scientists, engineers, first responders and eye witnesses think your full of ___________.
http://www.history.com/shows.do?action=detail&episodeId=240087

EDIT:  I DID say in the first few posts, that this thread shoud not be.......

« Last Edit: October 31, 2009, 11:29:28 pm by Gorjo MacGrymm »
Logged
"You should stop cutting down all these herr trees, or, MAN is my Queen going to be Aaaaa-aang-Re-ee with you guys!" flipping his hand and batting his eyelashes."
"Oh my god guys, wood, is like, totally murder."

Cheeetar

  • Bay Watcher
  • Spaceghost Perpetrator
    • View Profile
Re: Opinions on the Middle Eastern Conflict
« Reply #110 on: October 31, 2009, 11:32:44 pm »

on 7/11 to
Don't you mean 9/9?

*flies off*
Logged
I've played some mafia.

Most of the time when someone is described as politically correct they are simply correct.

Cthulhu

  • Bay Watcher
  • A squid
    • View Profile
Re: Opinions on the Middle Eastern Conflict
« Reply #111 on: November 01, 2009, 12:34:08 am »

Hey 9/11 conspiracy theorists:  watch this show and weep.  The scientists, engineers, first responders and eye witnesses think your full of ___________.
http://www.history.com/shows.do?action=detail&episodeId=240087

EDIT:  I DID say in the first few posts, that this thread shoud not be.......



THATS JUTS TE GOVERMINT COVRUP GOVERT OENS HITSORY CAHNEL TATS WY ITS ALWAYS ABOUT HITLER NAD HOW WE BETE HIM UP IN TE NINTEEN HUNDRED FORTY
Logged
Shoes...

Neruz

  • Bay Watcher
  • I see you...
    • View Profile
Re: Opinions on the Middle Eastern Conflict
« Reply #112 on: November 01, 2009, 01:35:23 am »

on 7/11 to
Don't you mean 9/9?

*flies off*

Yeah, i'm not used to American dating systems, we do Day/Month, not Month/Day

Aqizzar

  • Bay Watcher
  • There is no 'U'.
    • View Profile
Re: Opinions on the Middle Eastern Conflict
« Reply #113 on: November 01, 2009, 01:41:42 am »

Oh for the love of god, here we go again.

Any notion that the Bush administration was actively involved in making 9/11 happen can be easily thrown out the window by actually looking at how the administration operated in every other regard.  Namely, pants-on-head retarded.  The level of organization needed to preplan building leveling explosives, to the day of an attack by a terrorist organization America hadn't been able to infiltrate for a decade, without anyone noticing at the time or any hitches, is absolutely staggering.

Then you get to the fact that the Bush people couldn't keep anything secret for more six months.  The administration leaked like a sieve, and in the 54 hours since Bush left D.C., more leakers have been literally exploding out of the woodwork.  You know how many actual insiders claim that anyone had a hand in 9/11 besides Al Qaeda?  None.  You know what they all have been saying?  That the administration was ludicrously off the ball, especially in the beginning.

I simply can't understand why so many people who despise Bush would claim he and his people had the wherewithal to pull off such an audacious plan, and somehow keep it completely airtight for now seven years, especially with no further hand on anyone who would have been involved.

If you actually believe that 9/11 was an inside job in any way other than incompetent negligence, you're giving George Bush entirely too much credit.

I'm oh so proud that I've lived on in Jude's signature for so long.  And with that, I leave this thread to it's endless cycle of recriminations between people with no capacity or intention to change their minds about anything.

I was actually qualified to participate in the original discussion, but there's no point.  I've always believed that arguing politic on the Internet is a waste of time, because by definition, if you're going to reply at all, it's because you already believe that you are right where everyone else is wrong.


on 7/11 to
Don't you mean 9/9?

*flies off*

Yeah, i'm not used to American dating systems, we do Day/Month, not Month/Day

7/11 still isn't the day you're thinking of in either format...
Logged
And here is where my beef pops up like a looming awkward boner.
Please amplify your relaxed states.
Quote from: PTTG??
The ancients built these quote pyramids to forever store vast quantities of rage.

Neruz

  • Bay Watcher
  • I see you...
    • View Profile
Re: Opinions on the Middle Eastern Conflict
« Reply #114 on: November 01, 2009, 01:50:32 am »

Yes Aqizzar, i know.

Muz

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Opinions on the Middle Eastern Conflict
« Reply #115 on: November 01, 2009, 03:03:27 am »

Heh, the American government does deserve a lot of those conspiracy theories. The whole "they're watching us" is true. The "they planted guerillas in Communist Country Z" is very true and has happened before. "They have aliens and are hiding them" may or may not be true, but sounds plausible.

WW2 was partly won by ingenuity on both sides. The Cold War was also very, very heavy on espionage. You have some huge lengths gone to encryption and decryption. USSR actually stole designs for some weapons of mass destruction from some of the highest security in the world. There have been plenty of fake information planted everywhere just to fool people into thinking things otherwise.

You have some of the smartest people in the West in USA government offices, even though Micheal Moore points otherwise. Conspiracies happen. Triggering 9/11 is unlikely to be something the CIA would do, but it's certainly not beyond what they would do, considering what they did in Cuba.

It's still extremely unlikely that 9/11 was an inside job. Far more likely, they expected it to happen and shrugged off the idea. Or they just let it happen, which solves the hassle of making it an inside job.
Logged
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.

Cthulhu

  • Bay Watcher
  • A squid
    • View Profile
Re: Opinions on the Middle Eastern Conflict
« Reply #116 on: November 01, 2009, 03:15:40 am »

Quote
"They have aliens and are hiding them" may or may not be true, but sounds plausible.

I stopped reading here.
Logged
Shoes...

sneakey pete

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Opinions on the Middle Eastern Conflict
« Reply #117 on: November 01, 2009, 06:53:17 am »

I do dislike how conspirators won't just pick a singe angle for 9/11. They'll go on about how "oh this part failed wrongly", then later on "oh the government knew it was coming". What, what, didn't you just say the government did it ???

Logged
Magma is overrated.

Cheeetar

  • Bay Watcher
  • Spaceghost Perpetrator
    • View Profile
Re: Opinions on the Middle Eastern Conflict
« Reply #118 on: November 01, 2009, 06:54:09 am »

Quote
"They have aliens and are hiding them" may or may not be true, but sounds plausible.

I stopped reading here.
I think he meant that if they did have aliens, they would hide them, but I'm not sure.
Logged
I've played some mafia.

Most of the time when someone is described as politically correct they are simply correct.

Neruz

  • Bay Watcher
  • I see you...
    • View Profile
Re: Opinions on the Middle Eastern Conflict
« Reply #119 on: November 01, 2009, 07:12:48 am »

Conspiracies happen.

Yes, and almost invariably they are blown very soon after, or half-way through.


Whenever a conspiracy is pulled off successfully, when it finally comes out (as it invariably does) it goes down in history as a phenominal effort of beating the odds.

And let me assure you; the odds against a conspiracy going unnoticed are huge; the odds of a benign conspiracy going unnoticed are astronomical; the odds of an actively malevolant conspiracy with the scale of destruction that 9/11 was and not having somone's conscience give in and blow the whistle are unimaginably high.

I should also add that Al Qaeda did in fact take responsibility for the attacks.

Quote
The whole "they're watching us" is true.

The machines are sure, the people aren't. You think the US Government has the manpower to watch every person in their country? Give me a break; there are known terrorists in the US that go without surveillance because none of the agencies have the manpower to watch them. If they don't have the manpower to watch known and confirmed terrorists, what do you reckon the odds are they have the manpower to watch random US citizens?

Quote
The "they planted guerillas in Communist Country Z" is very true and has happened before.

No it's not and no it hasn't. The US has supported guerillas in various countries before, in Afghanistan for example the US helped fund and train local militias into an organised guerilla force to bleed the Russian occupying forces dry (those Guerillas btw were abandoned when the Russians pulled out and later formed what is now known as Al Qaeda, ouch.) But Guerillas have never been planted (what the hell, planted? Like a bomb? Give me break.) in countries; the US Army lacks the manpower to run it's own Guerilla operations abroad; hell it lacks the manpower to run it's own operations full stop. The US just supplies money, training and direction to Guerilla forces that were already in place and would have fought anyway; they don't create Guerillas, they just beef them up a bit.

Quote
"They have aliens and are hiding them" may or may not be true, but sounds plausible.

No, no it doesn't.

In order for aliens to reach Earth, those aliens would need some way to get here, in order for them to get here in any reasonable time frame, they need to have some form of faster than light travel, if that is the case then those aliens have already torn apart almost all modern science and destroyed nearly everything we know about fundamental physical laws, and you're trying to tell me that the US Government somehow 'has' these aliens and is 'hiding' them? Give me a break.

Quote
WW2 was partly won by ingenuity on both sides.

WW2 was mostly won by Hitler's stupidity, America's production capability and Russia's meat grinder.

Quote
The Cold War was also very, very heavy on espionage.

Well duh. Wars tend to be pretty heavy on espionage. Your point?

Quote
You have some huge lengths gone to encryption and decryption.

Gee i wonder why.

Quote
USSR actually stole designs for some weapons of mass destruction from some of the highest security in the world.

Yep, that's because if you have a force trying to defend something as small and easily stolen as designs and plans from a force trying to steal said designs and plans, the offencive force has the advantage, and a significant advantage at that.

The same is true anywhere else; the attacker has the advantage. Attackers act, defenders react. This is why the Goalie in Soccer statistically will let more goals past than he saves; the guy with the ball has the advantage because he is attacking. The same is true anywhere else.

Quote
There have been plenty of fake information planted everywhere just to fool people into thinking things otherwise.

And it never lasts long, is rarely successful and always comes out in the end. The rare and notable times when such lies have passed, they've always involved very small groups of dedicated people, large conspiracies never work; there is not a single modern example of a large conspiracy not suffering from a whistleblower or three.

Quote
You have some of the smartest people in the West in USA government offices,

No, the smartest people in the West are in the Universities or underground in Europe building big tubes that collide hadrons. The government officials are mostly not very smart at all, constrained by rules and regulations and horrifically inefficient.

Quote
Conspiracies happen.

Rarely, and almost never without failure.

Quote
Triggering 9/11 is unlikely to be something the CIA would do, but it's certainly not beyond what they would do, considering what they did in Cuba.

If you can't see the difference, God help you, because no mortal can.

Quote
It's still extremely unlikely that 9/11 was an inside job. Far more likely, they expected it to happen and shrugged off the idea. Or they just let it happen, which solves the hassle of making it an inside job.

Nobody saw 9/11 coming; 9/11 was outside the rules. In fact there were plans to look at a possible incident of an airliner attack on a skyscraper as a potential crisis scenario. I believe it was scheduled to come up in a meeting about 2 months after 9/11, the scenario was considered extreme and unrealistic, possibly even fantastic; it was completely out of line with all previous terrorist attacks that it was deemed unlikely and unimportant.


Now, the agencies and government did know Al Qaeda was up to something, they knew that Al Qaeda was on the move, and they had the information to put the puzzle together, the problem was none of that information had been processed and Al Qaeda had been throwing up false leads for months, Al Qaeda had thrown up such a smoke screen that it was impossible to work out exactly what they were doing. They were doing something, you could be absolutely sure of that, but nobody knew what until it was way too late.





Finally, as a sort of post script, it is a very different thing to conduct a successful conspiracy in modern peace-time than it is to do so in world-war 2 war time.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2009, 07:15:29 am by Neruz »
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9