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My forts never get big enough to get the economy.

33 (23.1%)

I have economy turned off.

43 (30.1%)

I do the economy but don't use coins.

47 (32.9%)

I do the economy and do use coins.

20 (14%)

Total Members Voted: 143

[jseah]

Economy: A system that allocates goods and services in a population.  Often involving money. 

The problem in DF here stems from over production. 

Farming produces so much food from so little land that the 10 or so farming related people can produce enough to feed 200. 
One crafter can make all the crafts any number of dwarves needs (not want).  Since crafts don't break. 
Similar problem with furniture and rooms.  They don't degrade, or need maintenance.  Demand for these drops to 0 once everyone has one. 

The economy cannot allocate labour in such a situation.  What in the world are your dwarves going to demand?!  200 dwarves' wants and needs can be taken care of by 50. 
There are two solutions. 
1. Continuous expansion.  More dwarves join, in exponentially increasing numbers, to make up the demand for new goods. 
2. Non-demand-based projects.  In the real world, this is called entertainment (doesn't exist in DF) and research (also doesn't exist in DF). 

[Nidokoenig]

 I suffer the coinless economy, but this is mostly because I aim to train most or all of my people to legendary, and only assign rooms to legends anyway. This means that anyone who actually has to pay for things can sleep on masterpiece beds in the barracks for free and afford high-quality roasts to eat and sunshine to drink, which are more frequent happy thoughts than sleeping. I also try to make hauling jobs as short as possible and train haulers to legendary in something. Between the stat gains and not having to bother with maximising their pay, it's a no-brainer.
 Of course, all legendaries need to have a bunch of containers and cabinets stuffed in their rooms as soon as possible, just in case I'm producing something they like. Keeps the masons, carpenters, glassmakers, clothesmakers and leatherworkers busy, though.

[Reese]

2. Non-demand-based projects.  In the real world, this is called entertainment (doesn't exist in DF) and research (also doesn't exist in DF). 

In DF this is called mega projects...

[Jude]

A large fort in DF, usually around 100-150ish, is about at the limit when communism begins to break down.

Communism is absolutely wonderful for small settings. If everyone knows each other and can help each other out, its great. But eventually if the community gets too large where people don't know anyone else, then there is no longer any incentive to be honest.

A household with a single family is an example of communism that works just fine. You can go with a household with extended family, and it still works. Tiny village where everyone knows each other, it'll still work.

Apply it to a country with millions of people? Utter failure.

This, basically. I don't think it makes sense to have an "economy" (which is really a pseudo-economy, it's not dictated by supply and demand or anything) with 200 or less dwarves. The "village" thing still holds; communism is great if you have a small group and enough to go around. That's how intentional communities and Amish villages and so on work. But with upwards of a couple hundred dwarves I think it would make more sense for people to start looking out for number one.

I still play with the economy on though, largely because I don't especially need haulers. Instead, useless migrants get masonry turned on and they either work in the mason's shops, converting all the mined stone into blocks, or else building the blocks into aboveground castle structures. That pays better than hauling, I believe. When I need things hauled, like to the trade depot, I just turn off all the "construct rock blocks" jobs. Otherwise, people can get just things from the workshops where they pile up, no biggy.

[slink]

I only realized after reading this thread (good post by the Eastern European, incidentally) that my Dwarves were being evicted from their rooms even with zero rent, when they ran negative on cash due to eating.  I don't like that.

What actually changes if we play with the economy turned off? 

What would happen if I turned it off now, after it was activated?

[Urist McDepravity]

If your x-craft dwarf has guaranteed room and great meal and free booze, he should take it for granted and perform poorly and according to true communit spirit: spend more time 'on break', produce mostly -crappy item-, even if he is legendary, take longer time to work, and steal stuff related to his job for 'personal use'.
Communist trader should, for example, do 'stealth trades' for items he desires with random goods (noone owns then, noone cares if they disappear).
Pretty much every dwarf should pick up piece of furniture on his own from stockpile and install it in his room. Replace worse quality item with better or just get new -statue-.
Preeconomy military dorfs should not really spend much of their time training, but just simply just hang around and mildly rough up civillians. And yes, weapons and armor pieces should get 'lost' sometimes.

First, you should not forget that in DF we have completely different environment. Its a unending wartime there, and it is intended to be struggle-to-survive.
Second, there's always nobles and hammerer with FG/RG to ensure no one is slacking.

With both cases true, USSR did an amazing, nearly-miracle job during and after WWII. Stalin's 'industrialization' showed that such approach DOES work when you motivate people good enough (hammer them to death when they fail to meet mandate of building enough factories).

As for topic, never played with economy on. Too much hassle with little sense.

[LeoLeonardoIII]

Some people mentioned the problem with dwarves owning a lot more than just their clothes because they buy stuff with the economy on. It seems like you'd see a lot of crafts get dumped into individual ownership and not be available for trading outside the community for new things.

Those of you with the economy on, do you find that your forts are cluttered with everyone's owned garbage?

Wouldn't it make sense that individual dwarves would run to the trade depot to make individual trades, selling their owned goods and buying new goods? But that obviously isn't implemented.

[slink]

Yes, my fort is cluttered with private property.  I have a legendary miner who likes to collect weapons, which I thought were the sole provinence of the government in DF.  Not only does he have several stacks of iron arrows lying on the floor of his room, but he also has a pike and a 2-handed sword.  Many collect narrow clothing, of course.  One has bought so many mugs that his 5x5 room is filled with them all the way out into the door opening.  He has both a coffer and a cabinet.  I assume mugs don't fit in either, for some reason.  I gave the miner mentioned above a weapon rack but he isn't is now using it for his collection.

I have just converted all my non-legendary Dwarves back to barracks living, so that no one will go through the eviction cycle again.  Now the barracks floor is covered with odds and ends of personal possessions that were in their cabinets.  I guess no one uses the cabinets in a barracks?   

[alway]

In the real world, this is called entertainment, in dwarf fortress it is called megaprojects and magma traps. And research which also occurs in DF to a lesser extent through the form of experimenting with game physics to figure out what can and can't be done.

Fixed.

[Rijjka]

With both cases true, USSR did an amazing, nearly-miracle job during and after WWII. Stalin's 'industrialization' showed that such approach DOES work when you motivate people good enough (hammer them to death when they fail to meet mandate of building enough factories).

I'm sorry? That's an amazing job? I suppose if productivity was the only thing we were judging by, then sure whatever. But the death toll of his methods should render them unusable by all but the most inhumane of people.

Sorry for the tangent, but we do seem to have a bit of a drift going on.

[Urist McDepravity]

I'm sorry? That's an amazing job? I suppose if productivity was the only thing we were judging by, then sure whatever. But the death toll of his methods should render them unusable by all but the most inhumane of people.

I'd happily go into arguement over actual results compared to western propaganda, which intentionally demonizes Stalin, but it's game forum, not political one, so i'll just go with noting that dwarves are NOT humans. And their society is already 'inhumane'. They already slay random dwarfs for not meeting a demand and call it justice. So 'war communism' would perfectly work here.

[Hyndis]

With both cases true, USSR did an amazing, nearly-miracle job during and after WWII. Stalin's 'industrialization' showed that such approach DOES work when you motivate people good enough (hammer them to death when they fail to meet mandate of building enough factories).

I'm sorry? That's an amazing job? I suppose if productivity was the only thing we were judging by, then sure whatever. But the death toll of his methods should render them unusable by all but the most inhumane of people.

Sorry for the tangent, but we do seem to have a bit of a drift going on.

Stalin was a butcher, but he certainly got the job done. In only a few decades he transformed the world's largest country from a feudal society into a superpower that rivaled the US. While fighting off the Germans on Russian soil. Twice.

[HAMMERMILL]

I turn off the economy, but I still mint iron coins because its a consequence-free thing to train novice metalworkers with since they have no quality modifier anyways and I like to throw them in adventure mode. Also, just keeping them locked up in a bank vault is cool.

I often play DF with the goal of creating as much fortress wealth as possible, so the fortress is essentially like a business or a company town. Everyone gets free room and board, in exchange for their labor. I like to think all of my dorf employees are paid with shares and profit-sharing models.

Or you know, I run the fortress like a military regiment and everyone works hard because they are required to and they are paid with room and board and theoretical money they can't actually spend.


I like to enable the hunting labor and have everyone carry a weapon and wear leather armor, so the military-type society is pretty accurate, I suppose