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[Footkerchief]

Your first source is talking about crossbows that you had to wind for 400 pounds of pressure. In DF arrows and bolts are about equally deadly so we're just talking a similar pressure to what you could do drawing a bow, and that's not going to take 30 seconds or even 10 to cock. The picture with the single lever to push down should give you a better idea of what these are.

Inferring the canonical draw weight of DF crossbows from their current number-picked-out-of-a-hat effectiveness is not going to convince anyone.  If "picture with the single lever" refers to a repeating crossbow, that comparison is obviously wrong since DF crossbows have no magazines, as evidenced by the fact that all unfired bolts remain in the quiver.  So what we're looking at is a single-shot crossbow with minimal draw weight and a rate of fire of... how fast are you claiming, exactly?  If you're sticking to the "as fast as a legendary swordsman can swing," maybe 1 shot every 1.5 or 2 seconds?  Please cite some kind of evidence that such a thing has ever existed.

[Nexii Malthus]

Seconds? Shouldn't we be using ticks? For example, a bridge takes 100 ticks to open/close from lever pull. The problem is that the amount of time you observe compared to what is actually happening is severely disconnected, if you are using seconds to observe what you see happening in DF then your just carpshitting around trying to sway anothers' opinion by force.

The problem is compounded that everything is highly abstracted. We have ranged weapons where a single tile can be as small as a dwarf and as big as a dragon. Where does accuracy fit into this?

So we have two big problems, space and time.

[Footkerchief]

The problem is that the amount of time you observe compared to what is actually happening is severely disconnected, if you are using seconds to observe what you see happening in DF then your just carpshitting around trying to sway anothers' opinion by force.

I'm aware.  However, he was defending the fact that, in DF time, a crossbow can be fired as rapidly as a sword can be swung, by asserting that the same is true in real life.  The actual number of seconds is not important, I agree -- it's the comparison.

[Shoku]

On an off-topic note (but not off-topic enough to warrant a new topic), did Toady ever say that he would change the throwing system so that throwing bolts or arrows in Adventure mode wouldn't be exactly as powerful as firing them with their respective ranged weapon?  I think he talked about that, but I'm not sure.

Not directly but the dev log has made mention of how he's been trying to balance the power of a thrust with the impact size (small lunging weapons weren't getting damage anywhere comparable to something with a larger are despite the same force behind them and some bolts were cutting people in half when he accidentally made them too large.)

And there was also the bit about how head on the impact is mattering. Long swords won't be severing arms when you're breathing down the other guy's neck and instead will give them a bunch of nasty slashes.

Presumably you won't throw an arrow with as much force as the crossbow would and you won't be as dead on about it so I... more than suspect... that that's pretty much the case now.

The only speed advantage mastering one skill gives to other skills is any agility gains. You'll need several skills at legendary for top stats but they can be things like conversation or swimming.

Not really, Dorf that only trains marksmanship+noncombat skills to legendary is marksdorf glass canon that is guaranteed casualty when (if) melee reach him.

Training wrestling, armor and shield proficiency makes him much more survivable than just high toughness, and training hammer mastery makes him actually continue killing stuff even if he is in melee range and/or runs out of bolts.

That wasn't what was being asked and being superdwarvenly tough would give them a big portion of the advantage wrestler/hammer/shield/armor legendaries have. Obviously they couldn't compete with people who had the stats and also those skills but that's kind of obvious.

Your first source is talking about crossbows that you had to wind for 400 pounds of pressure. In DF arrows and bolts are about equally deadly so we're just talking a similar pressure to what you could do drawing a bow, and that's not going to take 30 seconds or even 10 to cock. The picture with the single lever to push down should give you a better idea of what these are.

Inferring the canonical draw weight of DF crossbows from their current number-picked-out-of-a-hat effectiveness is not going to convince anyone.  If "picture with the single lever" refers to a repeating crossbow, that comparison is obviously wrong since DF crossbows have no magazines, as evidenced by the fact that all unfired bolts remain in the quiver.  So what we're looking at is a single-shot crossbow with minimal draw weight and a rate of fire of... how fast are you claiming, exactly?  If you're sticking to the "as fast as a legendary swordsman can swing," maybe 1 shot every 1.5 or 2 seconds?  Please cite some kind of evidence that such a thing has ever existed.

Alright, going by your second source these have a range of around 400 yards. If we slow down the crossbow firing rate we should make it take several minutes to charge over to a crossbow user.

The problem is that the amount of time you observe compared to what is actually happening is severely disconnected, if you are using seconds to observe what you see happening in DF then your just carpshitting around trying to sway anothers' opinion by force.

I'm aware.  However, he was defending the fact that, in DF time, a crossbow can be fired as rapidly as a sword can be swung, by asserting that the same is true in real life.  The actual number of seconds is not important, I agree -- it's the comparison.

I admit it's not exact but the rate should be similar considering that we are probably not actually looking at bolts shot 400 yards and thus these don't need 400 pounds of pressure behind them. DF bolts don't even knock down a relatively tough opponent when they get stuck in them.

I'd be alright with a zero training dwarf taking 30% longer to shoot a bolt than to swing a big melee weapon but 30% is not the kind of imbalance you're claiming here.

Eventually we may see the quality of the crossbow impacting the maximum firing rate but for now it's not that bad.

[HatfieldCW]

Or just let dwarves use bows, which would give the bowyer something else to do and would justify the rate of fire with a penalty to damage, and leave crossbows in as a high damage, low rate of fire alternative.

[Impaler[WrG]]

People need to be cognizant that their are different sizes of crossbow so all these rate of fire citations need to for specific types in order to be useful.  My understanding is that a 'light' battlefield crossbow would have about half the rate of fire of a SKILLED bowman, ware as a 'heavy' crossbow which would be typically used to defend a castle would be half again as slow primarily because it use a winch to pull the string ware as the light crossbow is pulled by hand usually placing it on the ground and using the front mounted stirrup to perform a upward pull on the string using the strong muscles of the back.

The both bow and crossbow the larger the draw-weight the slower the reload time and the longer the range and force the projectile strikes with.  In both a normal bow and a crossbow the wielders strength and skill should provide a bonus to the rate of fire, but the bonus is greater for the bow.  Strength also gives the bow a range and damage advantage ware the crossbow has a fixed range and fixed damage.  In a system can be designed that takes these factors into account and exposes them to moding then I'd be satisfied.

[LegoLord]

Or just let dwarves use bows, which would give the bowyer something else to do and would justify the rate of fire with a penalty to damage, and leave crossbows in as a high damage, low rate of fire alternative.

Bowyers make bows and crossbows.  They are crossbows after all.

[HatfieldCW]

Well, yeah.  They make blowguns, too, but only with moods.  Dwarf bowyers can only do crossbow jobs at their workshop, and dwarf soldiers cannot equip anything else.  So let the dwarves in the fortress use bows and arrows as well as crossbows and bolts, and then we could have two ranged weapon classes that could be tweaked to get all the functionality we want without having a single, unreasonable piece of gear at our disposal.

What did you think I meant?

[LegoLord]

I thought you meant that bowyers couldn't do anything.  By the way, currently bows can be made from metal, same as crossbows.

[HatfieldCW]

Note:  This post is tangential to the thread.

Ah, I see.  And by the way, why is it that we can make copper crossbows?  I understand that it's something to do with the weapon manufacturing code, but I think that's almost a bug.  Modern bows and crossbows can be metal, obviously, but that's using metallurgy and engineering that's well outside the "15th century" vibe that DF usually adheres to.  I figure wood should be the only valid material for bows, and that different types of wood should have quality multipliers like metal does for swords, so you'd trade with neighbors to get yew and whatever other woods are great for bows.

It gets a little tricky, of course, because a crossbow is a fairly sophisticated chunk of science, with metal parts and wood parts throughout, but I'm not sure that I'm really in favor of having to do it the "authentic" way all the time, having a carpenter's shop make pick handles while the metalsmith makes pick heads and then having a craftsdwarf assemble a pick would probably push my "micromanagement" needle into the red, but we could just modify the requirements, like obsidian swords do.

Interesting stuff, and almost entirely off topic.

[Footkerchief]

And by the way, why is it that we can make copper crossbows?  I understand that it's something to do with the weapon manufacturing code, but I think that's almost a bug.  Modern bows and crossbows can be metal, obviously, but that's using metallurgy and engineering that's well outside the "15th century" vibe that DF usually adheres to.  I figure wood should be the only valid material for bows, and that different types of wood should have quality multipliers like metal does for swords, so you'd trade with neighbors to get yew and whatever other woods are great for bows.

This oft-cited book on the history of crossbows says that crossbows with steel bows (=prods) were in use in the late 1300s.  I would be surprised if metal crossbows weren't also in use in the ancient world, although I couldn't find any reliable mention of them (lots of references to Romans developing iron crossbows and ballistas, though).

Copper would probably be far worse than wood, though.

[Impaler[WrG]]

I can't imagine any metal other then steel having sufficient tensile strength and springiness to serve as a bow.  I believe the Romans used animal-sinew torsion based weapons more then springs as a spring also needs to be made of steel or else it will snap very quickly.

[Shoku]

Well, yeah.  They make blowguns, too, but only with moods.  Dwarf bowyers can only do crossbow jobs at their workshop, and dwarf soldiers cannot equip anything else.  So let the dwarves in the fortress use bows and arrows as well as crossbows and bolts, and then we could have two ranged weapon classes that could be tweaked to get all the functionality we want without having a single, unreasonable piece of gear at our disposal.

What did you think I meant?

I think people would still complain about machine-gunning projectiles. With piercing damage having a basically fixed chance of stabbing the heart out the rain of arrows a single unit can produce is imbalanced.

[Bricks]

So we have two big problems, space and time.

Shit, someone turn on the Einstein signal.

[cephalo]

I think people would still complain about machine-gunning projectiles. With piercing damage having a basically fixed chance of stabbing the heart out the rain of arrows a single unit can produce is imbalanced.

It's not just the damage done by the bolt that is the problem, it's also that even a non-killing blow very often stuns the target long enough for another shot. That along with the insane firing rate means that a novice can take out 6 goblin wrestlers on flat ground without a scratch.