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[SirHoneyBadger]

Because clowns are scary?

[Felblood]

I've read that a it's a joke, on how the glowing pits are packed full of evil, like a clown car is packed with clowns, but I don't know how solid the research behind it is. One way of the other, pit demons are clowns in the same way that dwarves are Urists.

I really like the idea of military force being a temporary solution, with the demons coming back in greater numbers, until you find a way to lock them back in, forever. With the army arc, we'll be able to counter attack and destroy anyone who makes themselves a nuisance, in addition to making peace with them. I don't see either of these strategies working on the HFS. They aren't interested in peace, and invading the glowing pits, if possible, should prove extremely foolhardy.

This all assumes that the glowing pits really are portals to hell, as opposed to tiny pockets of trapped horror. However, I think it's acceptable to explore the potential of this theory, without needing to debunk the others first.

Killing the HFS as it spills into your fort is a matter for the entire military, but taking the fight back into hell does sound like a job for a special team of heroes. Only the bravest souls should be willing to follow an order to advance into the glowing pits, and only specially trained and equipped soldiers should be able to survive in the underworld.

Assassinating the king of the underworld, or razing her demonic cities should be a project so vast that only the most dedicated DF player should even stand a chance.

[Pilsu]

Clowns turning the walls into more clowns would raise some odd questions about their nature.


I don't see why the philosopher would know what to do, beyond warning you against greed. I could see him trying to reason with the fortress guard, trying to make them stop all the madness and just seal off the candy jar before it's too late. The king would probably react in a way appropriate for his personality, assuming he's not completely jacked up on the purple gold yet. The philosopher might also opt to leave and try to get help elsewhere to make you do the right thing. Of course, should your fort be conquered and the king thrown in the dungeon, there's no guarantee the new man didn't just want it all for himself or end up doing so after feeling exactly what kind of mesmerizing dreams the king has been mandating to be dug from the depths. Putting the philosopher to death is a likely result in many of these scenarios, the real question is how much dissent the leaders are going to take and whether the dwarves handle it all in a convincing fashion. We don't get much feel for the goings on of the fort beyond simple management.

The philosopher's social skills and the personalities of various people would play a crucial role in all of this. We shouldn't forget about the peasants getting unruly either. They would probably be subject to the same influence as the king if they get a taste of the trove of the depths. Personality and wisdom related stats would probably affect their stance on the matter, potentially creating a chasm between people, hinting at a civil war. Combine the threat of brothers turning against each other with the existing, ever-present demon threat that grows larger with every flake of ore unearthed and the threat posed should the human trade princes find out about your treasures or heaven forbid, get their hands on some...


The question is, how much input would the player have in all this? Sure it's great for storytelling but it doesn't work if the player has no inclination to actually seal the pits.

[Felblood]

I only brought up the philosopher because he's a respected intellect in the comunity, and barring an extreme prejudice, he should be able to deduce that the cause of your recent outbreak of dementia is spiritual. I didn't mean to imply that he could actually do anything about it.

Clowns turning the walls into more clowns would raise some odd questions about their nature.

--and we already have enough of those.

The question is, how much input would the player have in all this? Sure it's great for storytelling but it doesn't work if the player has no inclination to actually seal the pits.

There's a point there. IF opening up the pits just trades constant haunting, for periodic demon invasion, the haunting needs to get really bad before anyone is going to open up the pits.

I think you're onto something with the psychological effects of the haunting dividing the fortress against itself. I see whatever sort of rebel organizations Toady uses for normal schisms, but with the added complication that the demon cultists will support whichever faction is for mining the admantium.

The player might feel himself pressured to open the pits before he is ready, just to prevent the two sides from coming to blows.

[Bauglir]

-snip-

[Julien Brightside]

I foresee a megaconstruction involving the ocean, a portal to hell and a very long dug channel.

[Pilsu]

Scratching the itching wound doesn't help, it just makes things worse. Logically, any fort population that was gripped by the metal's influence and decided to seal off the pits would likely just leave the now accursed fort if life gets too difficult to deal with

[Julien Brightside]

Came to think of it, who would win?

Cacame, Ironblood and Morul
Vs
Armies of Hell.

[Morrigi]

Of course Ironblood would survive, don't be ridiculous

[Malrin]

Now imagine Cacame, Ironblood, and Morul in leather jackets, fedoras, and other badass attire, brandishing holy water and blessed weapons, asking your mayor if you've got "a little demon problem."

I really wish I could draw right now..

[Julien Brightside]

From what I know, Cacame wields a nasty maul and Ironblood a cabinet. I dunno about Morul.

Oh yea, and just for fun, add in Tholtig as well.

[Servant Corps]

I heard somebody suggest a 'good' HFS that dwarfs have to protect to get "goodmite" or whatever.

Why would we want to protect said HFS? Why not have the Dwarfs attack the Good HFS, and thereby suffer TWO problems:
1) a relation hit with all other races and civilizations
2) all the fun when dealing with regular HFS.

 

[jokermatt999]

My two cents: Lovecraftian HFS good, Exorcist HFS bad.

I love the idea of the demons causing all kinds of horrible effects, both physical and mental, but I really dislike the idea of having priests or demonslayers drive them off. If they are supposed to be *Hidden* Fun Stuff, how would there exist specialists in dealing with them? Also, it takes away from the mysterious and powerful nature of them if you have a guy who can simply flip to page 53 of the "Dealing with Demons Handbook" to say an incantation to drive them off. To me, they should be unknown, possible almost incomprehensible horrors, rather than a known threat. Obviously making them too Lovecraftian just leads to an automatic game over, which I think is kind of a lame ending. Dwarf Fortress is all about the horrific, drawn out endings your fortress, and bringing back the "You dug too deep!" screen wouldn't really be a good idea in my opinion.

As for dealing with them, I like the ideas of driving them back temporarily with the military. I think it'd be awesome if you could only drive them back to the entrance or so, and had to reseal the pits by creating an adamantine wall. I see them as easily breaking through normal rock, although that obviously isn't possible in the current version. It seems like it could be a nice epic situation if you had to drive them back enough with your doomed legendary military, while a master mason works to seal them inside. That seems like it would be a great situation, and it doesn't really require much change in the mythology whatsoever.

[Rakonas]

Personally, I think the real issue is that the source of the evil happenings isn't the demons, it's the adamantine itself. Adamantine is the manifestation of pure evil in solid form, and only exists in places where the underworld and the world meet. It would also be reasonable to assume that hell is composed, in fact, entirely of adamantine.
It is not some kind of holy metal in which the gods sealed hell. If that even is the case, then how could you want the challenge to be ultimately surmountable? If the gods themselves resorted to sealing them off, as is the current norm for dealing for hfs, the demons are inevitable death.
You could physically defeat the demon hordes, year by year, season by season, but the true evil lies in the Adamantine. You may think this is not fair, as you could never give up this precious adamantine. The Adamantine wills you to think so. First it causes unparalleled greed and a drift towards malevolence. Then it causes madness, you hallucinate demons, have nightmares, and so on. Eventually you'll go berserk, or succumb to the will of evil entirely.
Your dwarves will become more and more influenced by the evil as they come into contact with the adamantine more often. All but the strongest willed good dwarves will find the temptation to steal beautiful objects crafted of it irresistible. Your thread extractor will likely be the first to succumb to the adamantine, sitting in a workshop for months on end processing the manifestation of pure evil. Also, ever wonder why your adamantine clad adventurer tends to slaughter entire towns of innocents without mercy? Increasingly weird things are bound to happen as the adamantine possesses the minds of the fortresses' denizens and fills them with evil. All of it should be as wildly evil and entertaining as possible, making for many self-writing stories.
There are few inevitable outcomes. You could avoid the temptation of adamantine altogether, casting any you come across into the abyss, or just not mining it at all. But we all know that dwarves are creatures of greed. Dwarves can avoid adamantine no more than adamantine can avoid toying with dwarves. Dwarves will ultimately either be killed by demons, or succumb to the will of the adamantine and become demons themselves.

[Pilsu]

Greed as a motivation goes right into the crapper if the metal makes you mad. It steals it of all it's value and pretty much gives you no reason to mine any at all. The effects need to be more or less subtle, something akin to what I described before for the scenario is to work at all