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Author Topic: Making HFS scarier  (Read 32787 times)

betamax

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Re: Making HFS scarier
« Reply #75 on: January 06, 2010, 08:41:34 am »

What we have here is a need to balance the physical aspects of HFS - the fightable things in the pits themselves - with the mental aspects - ghosts, possessions, and so on.

Just as there are only a limited number of demons in the pits, so too should there be a limited number of "ghosts" (here, I am using ghosts to refer to actual entities, or just moods and thoughts which appear upon the dwarves), each one able to affect only one dwarf. This means that fortresses cannot easily succumb to every dwarf becoming possessed - they can, however, succumb to the bad thoughts caused by the actions of the possessed, and hence a tantrum spiral. Once all of the possessed dwarves have been locked away or killed, the problem is solved.
Basically, there should be no HFS-related problem which cannot be permanently solved, since in most games people would like to focus on other aspects of the fort - it's hard to build a megaproject if you have ghosts around constantly.

However, by "permanently" I only mean for that wave of HFS attacks - more ghosts and demons could return a few months/years later.
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Pilsu

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Re: Making HFS scarier
« Reply #76 on: January 08, 2010, 05:07:36 am »

Either build the project beforehand or build it somewhere else. There's no reason the downsides of the pits should be trivial
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Raneman

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Re: Making HFS scarier
« Reply #77 on: January 08, 2010, 03:22:34 pm »

If your fort is going bad,

"A mysterious stranger enters your fort, and demands to speak to the mayor... Let him?"

We could have good guys... Saviors or Gods come to your fort.
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LegoLord

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Re: Making HFS scarier
« Reply #78 on: January 08, 2010, 05:20:14 pm »

Either build the project beforehand or build it somewhere else. There's no reason the downsides of the pits should be trivial
Being able to beat them back does not require, nay, does not even remotely imply that the downsides need be trivial.

Additionally, it'd wouldn't so much be hard to build the project as it would impossible to build the project (or anything, for that matter) if you cannot beat the denizens of the pits in some way.  A constant or endless stream of interruptions from possessions and fleeing from the possessed does not sound like something that would allow for much freedom in gameplay.
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Cardinal

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Re: Making HFS scarier
« Reply #79 on: January 08, 2010, 05:42:48 pm »

Additionally, it'd wouldn't so much be hard to build the project as it would impossible to build the project (or anything, for that matter) if you cannot beat the denizens of the pits in some way.  A constant or endless stream of interruptions from possessions and fleeing from the possessed does not sound like something that would allow for much freedom in gameplay.

Most of Toady's features that work like this would be able to be deactivated in the config.  I think a "Classic HFS / New Turbo HFS w/ possessions & madness & cyclopean architecture" would be a reasonable toggle.
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Raneman

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Re: Making HFS scarier
« Reply #80 on: January 08, 2010, 05:45:24 pm »

Anyone else think Saviors would be interesting? Some badass god vs a tentacle demon?
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Morrigi

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Re: Making HFS scarier
« Reply #81 on: January 08, 2010, 07:06:52 pm »

All i can imagine is very disturbing things happening to said savior.
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Bauglir

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Re: Making HFS scarier
« Reply #82 on: January 08, 2010, 11:15:35 pm »

-snip-
« Last Edit: April 11, 2015, 12:20:25 am by Bauglir »
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Felblood

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Re: Making HFS scarier
« Reply #83 on: January 09, 2010, 09:13:17 am »

Okay, I've worked this over in my head for a bit, and this is what I got. In case you need to be warned this far into this thread HFS spoilers to follow.

These ideas are kept fairly mythology neutral, where possible, but there are going to be some sub-suggestions that come under countermeasures that some of you may find objectionable. We already know, you don't have to tell us.

The smash/burn/kill/defile demons in the pits and the horrible nightmare evil spirit creatures are the same beasties. If you kill the demons, the nightmares stop. This allows the dwarves to fight the demons on their own terms, in the traditional DF manner.

In fact, once you open the pits and the legions start storming out, the nightmares and whatever get put on hold in favor of a more direct application of death and horror. The psychic torments were just a stopgap that the demons applied, because they couldn't attack the dwarves in the more visceral fashion that they prefer. (This one does assume that the demons are unable or unwilling to tunnel to the dwarves, but still aware that they are "out there".)

The nightmares are whatnot should be an inconvenience at most.They should take a couple of dwarves here and there, through death and madness, and increase the chances of a spiral, but they shouldn't be a fortress ending cataclysm in their own right. They should mostly be about fear and atmosphere, rather than any sort of mechanical challenge.

From a game-play standpoint, the battle with the physical manifestations of evil is the climax, and the haunting stage is just the build-up that adds anticipation and flavor to that moment. In that regard they should slowly grow more intense over time, to push that sense of building drama, and eventually encourage the players into a confrontation with the horror that lives next door.

The nightmares should probably start with the first square of admantium mined(or even exposed), and row faster the more squares you mine. I know this seems harsh to those of you who are used to mining isolated veins with complete impunity, but I think that this adds the sort of enjoyable tension and "one more square" mentality that digging too deeply and too greedily should be about. Again, the horrors shouldn't be as much of a threat as a full on glowing pit scenario.

An experienced HFS miner might even be able to guess how many demons are in the pit below, from the level of horrors he experiences. This might seem like a bug, but it lends itself to a nice "Ooh, this must be a big one."

Countermeasures:

You should never be able to eliminate the effects of the call of Pit'thulhu on your fortress, but there should be a number of ways to mitigate the effects.

Doctors, priests, philosophers and medics should all be able to train themselves in the art of recognizing the symptoms of demonic possession and oppression. People are going to come to them with these problems, and they need to be able to figure out what they are dealing with.

Since the demon will just start harassing a new victim, there's no point in burning them, but that doesn't mean that your dwarves know that. Mandating the burning of the possessed would be a flavorful thing for athourity figures to do. This might give dwarves a happy thought, because they feel that something is being done about the problem.

Likewise, even if amulets and priestly blessings don't do anything, they might give dwarves the courage to soldier on through these troubled times, without taking an axe to the guy next door, when he rearranges his furniture at 3 AM.

However, it would be cool if the various religions did have some means of invoking divine protection, or abjuring harmful spirits. They could provide you with physical objects, like blessed amulets shaped like the totem animal of your god, sacred unguents(like holy water, sacred perfumes and anointing oils), scrolls inscribed with quotes from prophets, and the finger bones of a famous archbishop, or they could give you something immaterial like a prayer to say before sleeping, and a verbal blessing of their own.

These could make the nightmares come less often, or at least keep you from turning your children into artifact mittens. Over time, the demon's hold on a dwarf grows stronger, and you need more warding to keep it out of his skull. Thankfully, your priests are getting plenty of practice, so they should be up to the task, unless one of them has an accident, or get's possessed himself.

Alternatively, the fortress might try to appease their diabolical neighbors with worship and offerings. These could stop the growth of the problem, or even cause a single demon to stop causing trouble, so long as the offerings continue. As these are the histories of geed and trouble, the demons should demand an ever increasing amount of tribute, lest they visit horrors upon you once again.

The demands could be made known through the ravings of the possessed, or the cult leaders might have some means of auguring the demons will, without being completely lost to madness and possession(though it should probably be an eventual side effect, if they keep on communing psychically with demons). Some might even pursue possession, for the power it would offer them over the other cultists.

More Fun for everyone!
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LegoLord

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Re: Making HFS scarier
« Reply #84 on: January 09, 2010, 07:55:55 pm »

As soon as I saw
the finger bones of a famous archbishop,
This went through my head:
"your nunchucks were crafted from the bones of Mother Teresa."

Which could make things interesting.  Not necessarily making weapons out of holy people or even relics, but incorporating such relics into your dwarves weapons and getting some beneficial effect from it.  Like Michael Carpenter's Sword of the Cross in the Dresden File books.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2010, 07:58:57 pm by LegoLord »
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"Oh look there is a dragon my clothes might burn let me take them off and only wear steel plate."
And this is how tinned food was invented.
Alternately: The Brick Testament. It's a really fun look at what the bible would look like if interpreted literally. With Legos.
Just so I remember

Raneman

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Re: Making HFS scarier
« Reply #85 on: January 09, 2010, 08:06:17 pm »

I still wanna see God vs. Demon ACTION!
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Malrin

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Re: Making HFS scarier
« Reply #86 on: January 09, 2010, 08:13:50 pm »

I am a huge fan of horror flicks about digging into the ground and unleashing something very evil, so the HFS is awesome.

I think we should have more disease, resurrecting the dead, and demonic tricks. What about a demon that, instead of directly attacking, creeps into the catacombs and resurrects your dead dwarves to be used against you? (I like a Dead Space style one, which is a little bat-like creature that flies to the morgue, and turns the corpses into mindless abominations which attack all living creatures they can find)

Or how about years after you've killed a notable dwarf or merchant unjustly, they will climb out of the eerie pit with a demonic rage, and lead a band of zombies/demons to attack you.

Also, giant demons FTW. What if the eeerie pit spawns a bunch of demonic priests who have to find a 10x10 room to complete a ritual to summon a greater demon.
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Morrigi

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Re: Making HFS scarier
« Reply #87 on: January 09, 2010, 08:24:01 pm »

Your own dead rising to kill you... Awesome. Maybe the phantoms we were talking about could do it...
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Farce

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Re: Making HFS scarier
« Reply #88 on: January 09, 2010, 08:38:13 pm »

Haven't read this thread, but I saw some mention of needing to defile the pit to stop nightmares or something?  That made me think, maybe that would require a specialized "noble" of some sort - a Demonhunter, I guess, except maybe with a less silly name.  Maybe they'd be a wandering couple of groups within the civ, travelling between forts and going where needed as called or whatever.

After the breach, you'd have to send for them.  I wanna say you wait for the caravan to leave to get the word out, having to weather the time between having a caravan arrive, leave, etc.  But, with the impending new version, you'll be able to send people out, won't you?  So that would sorta be silly.  Then you'd have to actually get him - or them, if they work in teams, I guess -  through the demons and into the actual pit.


Of course, having them settle in places with known, active pits would make much more sense, so having to call them would only be applicable for like a year or so after discovery.  I mean, it's not as if you're in danger of demons in places without pits.

Malrin

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Re: Making HFS scarier
« Reply #89 on: January 09, 2010, 10:31:12 pm »

I like the idea of using special weapons which are more effective against mythological beasts.

I noticed that silver is a very bad weapon for real combat, but silver is supposed to be extremely effective at killing werewolves. (Also, some games make it so that silver will also sear the flesh of vampires and demons)

We could also have a priest noble, who is the only one who can operate the Holy Water basin (which is a workshop?) and holy water will be extremely effective against demons.

Also garlic extract and vampires.

Then I'll make a band of leather-wearing (for badass value) crossbow-toting (loaded with holy-water dipped bolts made out of silver) marksdwarves that will deal with the demonic menace.
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