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[SirHoneyBadger]

Legolord, please refrain from making personal attacks.

And then please look up the word "consequences", as in for the choices the player makes.

My point, if you'll bother to read what I said, ever, is that undoing the work of the gods themselves might have bad, "screw you over" consequences, exactly because you're going against the gods. Which would seem to be a more serious than normal action.

If you willingly choose to lead your dwarfs into what for them is blasphemy, then maybe the result won't always be a bunch of super treasure and good LULZ. Maybe there will be some real actual risk for the player, to go along with the reward.

And for that matter, maybe those risks can be mitigated through actions the player can take, so that we have choices about when and how to open the HFS (and it's a spoiler, however meaningless in this thread, and I choose to maintain it as such), along with whether or not to.

Not that this is anything more than a suggestion, so why it's being treated as more than such I have no idea. I'm a badger, not a toad.

[Pilsu]

How do we know the gods had anything to do with the pits again?

[SirHoneyBadger]

"Listen well, young Urist! Mighty Armok demands payment for the gifts he grants us. By the toil of our miners we are granted metal ores, and by the toil of our metalsmiths we are granted armor, weapons and *Platinum Statue*s. But there is one gift so great that we must pay an even greater price..."

[Malrin]

"Listen well, young Urist! Mighty Armok demands payment for the gifts he grants us. By the toil of our miners we are granted metal ores, and by the toil of our metalsmiths we are granted armor, weapons and *Platinum Statue*s. But there is one gift so great that we must pay an even greater price..."

Urist McAtheist: "what a load of crap, I want my adamantine coffer." *starts mining*


On another note, I'd laugh if Toady actually added clowns in a demon pit as an Easter egg. Because clowns are fucking scary.

[LegoLord]

Legolord, please refrain from making personal attacks.

And then please look up the word "consequences", as in for the choices the player makes.

No, seriously.  Things you can't do anything about are freaking annoying.  If all your food becomes unusable, just how are you supposed to be able to do anything?  How do you survive in the long term?  It might as well just be a screen that says "YOU LOSE" if you can't do anything about it, and the screen doesn't trick you into thinking you can.

You want consequences?  There should very well be consequences.  But they shouldn't be things you can't make up for.  Anything you do in real life that has consequences can be dealt with, so why should something that is being backed up by "realism" (referring here to actions having consequences in game) be something that can't be made up for eventually with effort and skill?

Additionally, that little quote you wrote up does not prove anything, it's just an extension of an already stated potential origin for adamantine.

[sproingie]

Let's stop taking it so seriously.  It's a game, and ultimately it's up to the game's creator.  Toady has already dropped hints that HFS demons will respawn in the next version.  Scary enough?

[SirHoneyBadger]

Ofcourse it doesn't prove anything, but it's an accepted viewpoint that we're trying to work with here, Lego. Could be right, seems like it probably is right since it's drawing from basic theology, but ToadyOne's never confirmed or denied it, that I know of.

And the point is that the player should be able to make bad choices, like flooding the world with magma, that cause serious repercussions. HFS, in my opinion, should be similar, in it's risks, to magma. It can be a great thing, or it can burn you.

Nobody ever said it would be "game over", that you wouldn't be able to do anything about it, or even that you couldn't safely pierce the HFS without anything bad happening at all. That's where you're not reading what I wrote.

The way I see it, if you don't kill off all the clowns right away, things should gradually get worse, the more of them left alive, and the longer they're out. Which means you'd have plenty of time to do all sorts of things to keep the gods from turning away. And maybe even earn their gratitude.

[Julien Brightside]

And the point is that the player should be able to make bad choices, like flooding the world with magma,


I don`t see why it is a bad choice.

Alternative way to destroy HFS: Build a loooong bridge over a chasm. Deconstruct said bridge when HFS appear. Wizards, goblins, humans and pet elf must be provided by yourself.

[Bauglir]

-snip-

[SirHoneyBadger]

I'm sorry, Bauglir, and I mean this with the utmost politeness, but did you not notice that you're in the Suggestions forum? As in, it was a suggestion, not a commandment written in stone, or a threat to anyone's good time.

Also, I'm not ToadyOne, so why it seems to be necessary to you that I spell out every possible configuration of every single idea I ever come up with, is beyond me.

Go ahead and think for yourself whether or not my idea has any merit.

And then, if you think it does, feel free to run with it. It's a free idea. No copyright attached.

If you don't, why that's fine too.

No, no, really it is. I'm sorry but it does not matter to me whether or not you like my ideas. You or Lego or anyone else not liking any of my ideas doesn't so much as muss my hair. That's your issue, please feel free to deal with it by whatever means you think best, but please try not to drag the whole thread down by those means.

Personally, I still like the idea just fine.

I'm also not beholden to anyone to care about what you think is a good or bad basis for anything I say or do. I can't understand why you'd even think I would? Have you played DF? It's pretty much make it up as you go along. If Lego has a good idea, that he happened to pull out of his ass, then good for him for coming up with a good idea. The fact that I actually used something that's atleast been established within the community for some time, instead of just making it all up on the spot, I would think would be worth a little credit, rather than disdain.


As far as your own idea about the food etc. spoiling gradually, but continuing to do so as the clowns respawn, that seems a lot worse case of painting players into a corner to me, since there won't be anything at all you could ever do to prevent it, with clowns now respawning. The badness would happen over, and over, and over, until yeah, your booze will finally give out, or your steel artifacts finally crumble to dust. If something's going to go bad, let it go bad once, let the player deal with it in some final way, and move on to something else interesting.

Trees grow back, more booze can be distilled and the lack won't actually kill your dwarfs, as long as you have a watersource, more food can be grown, and processed (I never said all the plants, just all the trees-which could still be harvested for wood-and not towercaps at all, and again, it was just a suggestion), and rusty items can simply be cleaned with a little oil, for instance. All that happening at once might be very difficult to deal with, but not impossible. It's hardly "Game Over". And maybe only one of those things happen, or to follow your train of thought, maybe they happen gradually, until you kill say the leader of the first wave of clowns.

See right there how I took your suggestion and adapted it?

This is not a no-win situation. The sky isn't falling. It just takes some creative thinking outside of the tiny little box I provided, to come up with solutions to such a suggestion.

[jokermatt999]

If it's just the suggestions forum, don't get pissed off when people tell you your ideas would not be fun gameplay.

Ordinarily, I wouldn't call someone out like this, but you overreacted the same way in the FoF thread when asked not to cause a graphics derail. Quit getting so hostile when people have opposing viewpoints, and quit feeling you must have the last word.

[SirHoneyBadger]

If it's just the suggestions forum, don't get pissed off when people tell you your ideas would not be fun gameplay.

Ordinarily, I wouldn't call someone out like this, but you overreacted the same way in the FoF thread when asked not to cause a graphics derail. Quit getting so hostile when people have opposing viewpoints, and quit feeling you must have the last word.

When I say that I don't care how someone else feels about my idea, how is that getting "hostile when people have opposing viewpoints"? Are you trying to make sense or form an actual reply, or is it really just your own hostility shining through?

[Malrin]

Retract your fangs, people. We are here to share ideas, not attack each other.

SirHoneyBadger has some realistic ideas. Obviously a demon pit should be a great danger to the fortress instead of an Antman colony made of adamantine. Yet as it has been said several times, making it obliterate all your supplies would be terrible for gameplay. We've got to come up with something that is realistic and fun. (but not too fun)

[Neonivek]

Well making the HFS soo difficult that it becomes an end-game goal (As in something you do with an already well established fortress with full sized military) wouldn't be bad.

Especially since the rewards granted by the HFS is sizable enough to make all other challenges almost moot. A Fully HFS equipped team can walk through just about anything and even make Megabeasts a mild annoyance.

That is only the stuff we KNOW the HFS brings forth.

Making HFS soo difficult that a foolish player breaking into it too early being wiped out isn't a flaw.

[SirHoneyBadger]

Thank you Malrin, Neonivek.