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Author Topic: Submarine Simulations  (Read 4333 times)

Puck

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Submarine Simulations
« on: October 22, 2009, 07:09:31 pm »

I played Seawolves or however it was called on some ancient computer, when I was a kid. I rarely understood what was going on, to be honest.

Then I played "688 Attack Sub" up and down, which I like, but lets be honest, modern submarines just arent fun.

Right now, I totally freak out on Silent Hunter III, robbed of its horrible starforce (ubi moderators were okay with the instructions on how to remove it on their own forums oO since the budget version is starforce free, too, by now) and modded with the latest GWX edition. Ill probably add some more ancient grammophone music when I get to it.

Anyhoo, anybody else here a sucker for real time trigonometry (because it's so much fun to calculate all the crap by yourself) ?
Anybody else here knows what a nomograph is and regularily makes use of it while on Feindfahrt  ;) ?

I have to admit, I'm still pretty bad, because I let the game update with map information when one of my crew can spot enemy boats, and pretty much the only shot I can calculate myself is a properly set up one, ie, I'm at the intercept point a few hours ahead of my target, lined up perfectly perpendicular to its course, with the TDC perfectly tuned in on all the information I managed to gather so far.

In case anybody is interested, this is how to plot that intercept course using some very basic tools. Here is all the hardcore stuff... like... true manual charting on the move. That's some heavy shit right there, huff puff, especially if you try to pull that off while dodging destroyers. Not that I'd assume anybody is THAT ubar  ;D

Imho, oldschool submarines are the nerdiest things out there. They have lots of technology, bells, whistles, valves, pipes, no girls and survival depends on math skills. If this aint nerdheaven, I dont know what is!
« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 07:12:21 pm by Puck »
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Yolan

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Re: Submarine Simulations
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2009, 07:17:22 pm »

Yeah, SHIII was pretty good. I suggest you get the wolves mod as well though. Can't remember the full name.

SHIV wasn't bad also. Not as good as III in a lot of respects, but modders fixed a lot of problems.
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Gunner-Chan

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Re: Submarine Simulations
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2009, 07:21:08 pm »

If you don't mind an oldie I heard Aces of the deep was pretty good, you even get to play on the side of the Germans instead of the allies.
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Puck

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Re: Submarine Simulations
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2009, 07:21:26 pm »

I suggest you get the wolves mod as well though. Can't remember the full name.

modded with the latest GWX edition.
GWX stands for "Grey Wolves Extended"  ;)

Sensei

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Re: Submarine Simulations
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2009, 07:23:29 pm »

There's Midway: Battle for the Pacific, that lets you directly control units for a part RTS, part boat/plane/submarine combat game.
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Puck

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Re: Submarine Simulations
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2009, 07:25:55 pm »

I'm watchin the old movie "midway" right now  ;D

But if you talk about this midway game I think you are talking about, all I can say is BLEEEUUUURRRRGGGGHHH. Seriously, I'm talking about old submarines and my trigonometry fetish, and you come along with some newschool action game ;D

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Re: Submarine Simulations
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2009, 07:51:57 pm »

It's not a newschool action game, but it won't make you pull out your graphing calculator either.
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Puck

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Re: Submarine Simulations
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2009, 07:53:38 pm »

Graphing calculator? Spoiled kids these days!

Back when we had to make torpedoes hit, we had to use a ruler and a pencil! :D

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Re: Submarine Simulations
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2009, 07:57:36 pm »

Graphing calculator? Spoiled kids these days!

Back when we had to make torpedoes hit, we had to use a ruler and a pencil! :D
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Sowelu

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Re: Submarine Simulations
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2009, 08:04:21 pm »

Puck:  I think I'm going to get this game.  I, too, have a serious trig fetish.
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Uber dwarf2.0

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Re: Submarine Simulations
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2009, 09:21:04 pm »

1942 U-Boat Command?

I think thats the name of it, but the game is pretty Basic,Aim Using a Board,Fire,Move
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de5me7

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Re: Submarine Simulations
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2009, 10:49:00 am »

Ive got SH3 never really got into, i guess because i didnt realise its hardcore ness. I tried to play it like a shooter. sail round til i find an enemy boat then get close and fire .. and miss... and then get sunk. Also it usally takes several days of game time to find anything.

i may dig it out and have another go, im more into hardcore games these days
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Puck

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Re: Submarine Simulations
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2009, 12:04:29 pm »

sail round til i find an enemy boat then get close and fire .. and miss...
If you turn all the realism settings down in the vanilla version, you CAN actually play it a bit more action like, but what can I say, it's still a submarine game.

Lil fun fact that screws over most action style players, I guess:
IIRC the manual isn't very clear about opening torpedo tubes, and I think I remember the original icons in the lower left of the screen dont include "open tube". Do they? Standard hotkey is "q", but boy, I had to look for that.

If you dont open the tubes prior to firing, chances are, the torp will be off a few degrees, because of the delay. Even if you have the weapon officer calculate your solution, even if the TDC is set to update AoB dynamically, the firing solution from the second you pushed the launch button will be entered in the torpedo, not the correct one from the moment the torp leaves the tube.

So if you dont pay attention to this little detail, you'll miss a lot of shots.

and then get sunk
If I remember correctly, the manual of vanilla isnt all that clear about how to avoid/evade destroyers. I guess, that's something you'll have to learn yourself, since it's rather tricky, anyway. No amount of explaining can probably replace "havin it tried a few times".
IIRC the vanilla destroyers are rather easy, but the GWX ones, especially later in the war, will make you work hard for your money. For instance, you might even consider not going near any armed contacts post 1940 when you dont have at least 250 meter of water below your ass ;)

Stuff I learned so far (and only managed to act correctly in 3 early war destroyer encounters so far): As soon as they noticed you, get the fudge out of dodge. The sooner you notice you're noticed, the better. Dive, wait til you're out of sight, and then change course a bit. Go as deep as possible as soon as possible. The VIIB or whatever you start with comes with 60 meter guarantee, if you dive the last meters slowly and the boat is in a somewhat acceptable condition, you can hang around 200-220 all day long. If you're lucky, the destroyer has to start it's search where you left sight, sometimes that's enough to get out.

Staying silent is a given, but it's a hard decision: when the depth charges are dropping close to you, you should probably go flank speed and turn, when you took damage, you probably HAVE to pump and repair unless you want to drown, but other than that it's silent running all the way. Oh yeah, with the exception of you knowing when you are where the destroyers cant hear you, ie, behind their own propeller sounds, then you can crank those engines up all the way. I probably dont have enough situational awareness to do that with more than one enemy around.

If you can help it, turn the boat in a way so the enemy gets only a slim profile of you, should he be working the sonar to get to you. Can be a hard decision also, because that means two things: you either run straight at the destroyer, which can be bad for health sometimes, or straight away from it, which means you put it in a deaf spot for you, ie, you're going to lose contact bearing for some time, which may or may not matter.

tl;dr, shallow waters get you killed almost every time, because diving under their sonar is the most reliable way to gtfo. (iirc that means more than 50 meters early war, and up to round 150 late war... and I havent even encountered/worked with and against radar...)

Something else:
Yesterday I had some sort "epiphany". Even if I play this because of my trig fetish, my brain is old and rusty. School is almost 15 years back and my maths training in my free time is very limited these days.

But yesterday it occured to me, how much fun you can have once you know how fast the targets in a convoy are going and what course they have. Because you can predict, when EVERY ship in this convoy will have an AoB of 90° to you. You dont even have to turn your friggin uboat perpendicular to their course, well, you should try, but if you'Re a few degrees off, who cares!

You can just tell the TDC "when the enemy ships pass me at x°, the AoB will be 90°". Then you put your periscope exactly on that spot, and set the TDC on auto update (that has nothing to do with realism settings, thats just a function of the TDC you always have) and adjust target speed.

Apart from the depth and pistol settings you should now have a usable firing solution for almost every ship in that convoy. Seriously, you should just be able to turn the periscope where you want to fire, and that's where the torpedo should go. At least as long as the targets dont go into alert mode or you dont try to fire in an angle that goes to hard away from 0° bearing.

Well, the theory works fine, in reality I was a tiny bit off with a few shots, but quite frankly, this was probably just sloppy data gathering. When I tried the same trick but have my weapon office calculate the initial shot (ie, get 100% accurate data) and fired the other 3 on different targets just by turning the periscope and have the TDC on "1", I hit every single torpedo, so I guess it IS actually supposed to work that way.

edit: and to be honest... always working with the 90° AoB because it's easy, that'S just lame. Calculating the AoB for every given bearing, once you know the exact target course, should be childs play. But as I said, rusty brain. However, I just started to figure it out, instead of just looking it up.

But while I wanted to dig up an illustration for the triangle in question, I stumbled upon this

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I guess, that's also a way to do it ;D However, I wouldnt know how to measure "perceived length" quicker and more hasslefree than target course. Well.... actually I guess I can think of a way, but that would require me to get target speed, (which I have to do sooner or later anyway) and it would be awfully inaccurate... but it COULD work, especially since you have this little ship identification booklet, that gives you actual ship length, if you id'ed the target correctly.

edit2: and since this is remembering me of school, and ym maths lessons come back... glancing at my post, I should probably review english grammar rules about commas ;D Applying the same rules as german (and mixing them up with the little I can remember about english) to place em probably doesnt work all that well.

edit3: holy batman wall of text, sorry bout that.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 01:04:14 pm by Puck »
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mainiac

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Re: Submarine Simulations
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2009, 10:38:03 pm »

Then I played "688 Attack Sub" up and down, which I like, but lets be honest, modern submarines just arent fun.

Play Red Storm Rising and realize the error of your ways.
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Ioric Kittencuddler

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Re: Submarine Simulations
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2009, 07:01:06 pm »

I need to see a video of this taking out every ship in a convoy tactic you have.
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